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PostSubject: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:26 am

So I was actually thinking about researching this in college because I could and it would have huge implications. I will water it down a lot for this forum though. I think it actually is a great topic to discuss. I am sure we will have some contradicting opinions out there because personally I am not sold on a given side.
Who do you think does better. Do not say it depends on the situation either. The power of the situation is no doubt one of the biggest social psychological phenomenons there is, but that is not what I am aiming for here. Which of the following two player types do better when aggregated across all skirmish scenarios assuming all other variables about the person are held constant as controls. This means the only difference is their playing style. Guns and all other equipment are equal, including there playing ability and experience.
1) The person who chooses to move more tactically and may or may not go through as many BB as others. This person would rather wait until just the right moment to take a shot. He may spend a couple of minutes just moving up on people. In every skirmish situation he will try to make others react to him and try not to react himself.
2) The aggressive person who attacks swiftly and steady. You can never seem to hold this guys approach off. You either shoot him or he is shooting at you. This person will hold down a whole team of people without caring if he is alone himself. In fact he would charge into a village of people and surprise them all and do so skillfully.

I know personally somebody who fits both of these extremes and several who fall in the middle. I myself would say 1, but I have loads of evidence personally that would suggest 2 is better.

REMEMBER. Answer one of the extremes when thought about across all situations. And please don't feel intimidated to answer this one. I want to see all of out new members answer too. Surprised
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PostSubject: Re: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:31 pm

well there both equal in kills i think but i think #1 is better. but i will brake it down to explain what i mean.

1: is just as good as two in almost every situation. he can get just as many people out as the #2 is he choses to make his ambush at the right moment. #1's stories are spread among noobs as a thing of terror. the whole game they will be watching every bend. or every bush waiting for him to spring his trap. the time that he will strike is when they get tired of anticipating every bush or bend. he will eliminate the whole suad with precision and skill. this person also knows his rifle better than a chef knows his knives.

2: gets most of his kills out of dumb luck or pure skill. he runs off of solid adrenalin for the whole game. however if he gets shot by a single shot weapon(*cough*sniper*cough*) he will most likely shrug it off as a random branch that hit him, or he might not even feel it at all. there for he is cheating without even noticing it. honestly it is not his fault when that much adrenalin is pumping and a 170ft shot that will eventually be moving at 250FPS by the time it hits him will not be
noticed.

thats why i say #1. but for effectiveness they are the same. #1 keeps everyone guessing and waiting to be hit. #2 keeps everyone down in their bunker in fear.

#2 also gets more gratitude from everyone as everyone can see what #2 did. however the only people who see what #1 did are the people who he ambushed, therefor people give him less credit for what he did, even if it is just as effective as #2.


i hope i did it right, if i didnt someone please help. i like this psycology stuff to i think its a great addition to the board

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PostSubject: Re: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:06 pm

I play as the number 1, but i think it depends for which is better. Number 2 needs luck that things will go his way, but number one doesn't need as much luck, because he can wait for things to fall into place.
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PostSubject: Re: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:15 pm

I didn't mean to say that number two is not tactical. I meant to say that he is just as good skill level as #1 would be... but much more aggressive. Here hopes this helps give you an idea of what I was thinking about
1) Psychologically predisposed to be more thoughtful
2) Psychologically inclined to be more aggressive.
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PostSubject: Re: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:51 am

Psychology predispostions in airsoft.

That title alone makes me tired.... lol
I would have to say #1 would be more effective. As the two previous comments mentioned, #2 requires a lot of dumb luck - there's no arguing that. Even if #2 does have the same amount of skill as #1, for someone who plays in that manner it's hard no matter who you are to not get killed far too often (although you'd think a skilled player would be more of a team player anyway). And who knows, maybe #2 would even get more kills by his/her method, but that doesn't necessarily mean (s)he is more effective. If it were all about running around and shooting a ton of rounds off we might as well be playing paintball. But, because everyone's rifles are fairly accurate, especially at longer distances (120+ ft.), a person who just runs from one battle to the next with no regard for his teammates will be of hardly any use to his actual team's missions.

Because airsoft is typically milsim (what it's known for), games aren't usually based upon simple elimination, but completing objectives. So when #2 runs into a place lone-gunning it, he may get 10 kills by himself, but that doesn't mean anything when he gets killed by another player and those 10 people get right back in the game in a matter of seconds-minutes ready to actually take on a real attack. It takes cooperation between several team members to complete almost all objectives at real events. This is because typically objectives are well guarded and it'll take more than the bravery (stupidity?) of one guy to complete objectives.

And besides, although it's fun to watch (and sometimes do), the method of #2 sort of takes away from the game. Part of the thrill of airsoft is the attempt at realism compared to real combat. When we have people just running off on their own and trying to get a high kill-count, games and missions aren't nearly as fun. I hate during games/OPs when me and a squad of guys are moving in on some objective and out of the blue either a single guy or a guy and his friend who decided to go off on their own and do their own thing run in right before us and screw up my squad's strategy. It's quite annoying....

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PostSubject: Re: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:56 am

Roamer wrote:
I didn't mean to say that number two is not tactical. I meant to say that he is just as good skill level as #1 would be... but much more aggressive. Here hopes this helps give you an idea of what I was thinking about
1) Psychologically predisposed to be more thoughtful
2) Psychologically inclined to be more aggressive.

I understand the differences. But, and this is a question for anyone (but esp. Roamer), do you think it could be argued that the methods of #2 are not tactical. Maybe the guy is skillfull and very intelligent when it comes to battles, but is lone-gunning it, with little communication with his team (assumed - I know very little guys who actually communicate with their team who are also in the #2 category), and constantly running around firing off tons of rounds tactical? I would say most likely not.

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PostSubject: Re: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:14 am

No it can't. In my experience thus far these people are the ones who do better. Smalls always runs up and is rarely patient and he does a great job. I thought number one would be too, but a lot of my experiences have led me to say 2.
I would like to point out two people at Sunbury as well. The owner along with the guy who showed us around would both walk around until they found somebody not really caring too much about being sneaky. And when they found you neither one of them would let up until you were gone. I gotta say that these people have done way better in my experiences even if me, myself, and I would rather be more cautious.
I do see where you are coming from. I am just trying to remind you with empirical evidence that I know you have seen first hand. I really don't think you would argue with me about those two older players at Sunquest. They were pretty good and resembled more of #2.
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PostSubject: Re: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:46 am

I don't think you could say with 100% certainty "no it can't." Besides, I'm not saying they can't get lucky - but you missed my point anyway. I agreed they can get many kills, but my point was that first of all it requires some luck, and second of all lots of kills doesn't always mean they're effective players.

At Conquest, we were playing in an inside course, with many small rooms and CQB fighting. CQB = lots of ammo being shot = #2 players will be more effective than say being in a woodland battle. There's no denying that. Besides think about what you said - these two guys that "tore it up" were the owner and best friend of the owner of the actual building itself. Of course they're going to tear it up! They know all the secrets to the buildings, just like you said! I saw that as contributing to their success much more than they're firepower/#2 tactics. It seemed like every single game they would point out a new hole they knew of that they could stick their guns in and shoot us through. Besides, typical events will mainly be held outside, not in buildings. They'll be outside, in a 360 degree environment, where you don't always know where everyone is.

Let's take a look at more empirical evidence though. I have been to large events (actually only two, but still). Sticks and (I believe) Sentinel have also been in larger events. They've been outdoors and seen these crazy #2 type people work in real OPs settings. Your experience is with the smaller groups of players, say 6 on 6 outdoors, and maybe more like 12 on 12 at an indoor course like Conquest. EVERYTHING changes when you go onto a 200 acre playing area, with specific objectives (other than just elimination) and designed goals for individual squads, and where it's 150 players vs. 150 players. It's completely different. These #2 players don't do so well in these environments, and these environments are typical for actual OPs. These people aren't as fun to play with/against anyway...

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PostSubject: Re: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:16 pm

Sometimes when i play simple elimination games, its great to have the number 2 player, but in games like CTF he is useless UNLESS the team channels his power and uses him like a shock trooper to clear out an area. Basically he would be like a kamakazeer.
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PostSubject: Re: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:41 pm

Sentinel wrote:
Sometimes when i play simple elimination games, its great to have the number 2 player, but in games like CTF he is useless UNLESS the team channels his power and uses him like a shock trooper to clear out an area. Basically he would be like a kamakazeer.

That's very true. And guys who are crazy enough to run in by themselves and take one for the team can be useful at times (I have one on my team and he's great, although he can also stay back and be tactical at times too- Slacker is his name Smile ). And man they're fun to watch lol. I know this is a little off topic, but I remember my team was about to launch a major offensive on a small "town" full of the enemy (probably 40 of them). We had thrown in smoke grenades to help confuse them a little. Of course, as we're getting ready to advance, there runs in Slacker who grabs one of the grenades and runs right in the middle of the town while screaming and firing his rifle. He ended catching them off-guard and was able to take out several of them before finally getting shot himself Smile It was a beautiful sight. lol

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PostSubject: Re: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Thu May 01, 2008 11:48 am

So, Admin are #2 people useful or not? All of you guys say they are annoying during game play, and then you say he can be useful? Just a little confused.

Is anyone up for a #1.5? Large game play experience or not, if someone is charging at you and you are trying to be tactical, don't you have to switch to aggressive mode not to get lit up? I think a good mixture of both would be key. Learn to be aggressive AND patient.

As far as not communicating with #2 people I agree, but I have also played with #1 people who don't communicate, so aren't they just as useless to the team?
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PostSubject: Re: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Thu May 01, 2008 4:46 pm

I'm thinking Roamer meant that both players are just as tactical, but #1 lets the fight come to him, while #2 brings the hurt.

I think what we are talking about is more interesting though Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Thu May 01, 2008 5:13 pm

Ace wrote:
So, Admin are #2 people useful or not? All of you guys say they are annoying during game play, and then you say he can be useful? Just a little confused.

Is anyone up for a #1.5? Large game play experience or not, if someone is charging at you and you are trying to be tactical, don't you have to switch to aggressive mode not to get lit up? I think a good mixture of both would be key. Learn to be aggressive AND patient.

As far as not communicating with #2 people I agree, but I have also played with #1 people who don't communicate, so aren't they just as useless to the team?
*red emphasis was done by Admin

I'm up for a 1.5 definitely.

But a #2 can be useful and annoying at the same time... why couldn't they? And I was saying that they typically are useless, but at times, if you can control their lack of patience/wrecklessness long enough to get them to go where you want them to and when you want them to, then they can be used a distraction or to weaken an enemy encampment. But I'd rather have a bunch of 1.5s and 1s.

I think the real problem with #2 comes down to the lack of teamwork. It needs to be clarified whether #2 has his whole squad also acting as #2s, or if he's just running and gunning on his own, with disregard to his team. Because my impression was #2 is the guy who during events:
1 - doesn't usually listen to orders well
2 - all he thinks about is getting his next kill
3 - usually the guy who runs out in front of everyone while yelling and spraying random shots
4 - is overly aggressive and finds himself among too many opponents at once
5 - when in a squad, he's the guy who is extremely "antsy," is rushing the group along, and is constantly trying to convince the squad leader to do what he wants to do (which is almost always ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK!)

BUT, if you have a #2, who's very tactical, and is a great team player who takes orders well, and is with a group of other players who are like him as well, they all just happen to be fairly aggressive/swift, then heck yeah they'll be effective. Just like a group of #1s who all are like-minded will do well together. Just sometimes there will be a problem when #1s and #2s mix.

And also, in response to your comment I highlighted in red, I would say if someone's charging you, aggressive mode most likely won't be an effective answer. I mean I think back to all our practices (team juggernauts) and even in your case Ace, when someone's attacking you (we all) do one of two things:
1 - dig in and set up a defensive position to fend off the attack.
or
2 - tactically retreat back to a better position where you can put up a better fight.

I don't remember any instances where any one of us are having someone charge at us while firing on us and us decide that the smart thing to do would be to turn around and move in on them (being aggressive). That'd be suicide. If you're being charged, I'd say you'd never want to be aggressive with them, unless your definition of being aggressive simply means returning lots of fire (which is a given). If you happen to turn the tables through your initial defensive response, and suddenly they're on the retreat, then heck yeah you should be aggressive - get'em on the run!! Twisted Evil

Oh yeah, and good point about #1s who don't communicate as well too. There are plenty of those as well (and I'd say they're almost useless too)

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PostSubject: Re: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Thu May 01, 2008 5:36 pm

Sentinel wrote:
I'm thinking Roamer meant that both players are just as tactical, but #1 lets the fight come to him, while #2 brings the hurt.

I think what we are talking about is more interesting though Wink

This would be a better question. All his big words confuse me confused lol. Just kidding. If it were worded like this, then I would have a hard time saying which was more effective. I tend to be a #1, and it suits me well, but some people the #1 method just doesn't work for them - they need to be on the move a lot and their replicas are designed more for it. It's good to have both, in my opinion. But both have to be willing to adapt to the other, listen well, take commands, and know when to hold'em/know when to fold'em (so to speak - great song by the way). They even have this division in the military though. They have teams designed for heavy assault (#2), light assault (#1.5), and others who are more on the defensive side (hold positions, recon, etc.) (#1). They're typically split up into groups by types of weapons trained in and sometimes personalities/skills as well.

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PostSubject: Re: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Thu May 01, 2008 6:17 pm

All I can say is thank you sentinel!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Thu May 01, 2008 6:21 pm

This question stems from me getting rocked all of the time. I would always try my hardest to be sneaky and as cautious as I should... then there would be this awesome player (there are a few) who would tromp right up to me with little regard for stealth and I would be screwed. These #2 are always pushing me to my limits.
I agree that a 1.5 is better. I just kind of want to focus on these extremes for the time being. Thanks for clarifying all of this for me again Sentinal. Perhaps I should have used cautious instead of tactical.



SO HERE IT IS AGAIN, hopefully I word this right this time
1)More cautious
2)More Aggressive
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PostSubject: Re: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Thu May 01, 2008 9:50 pm

Haha. I'm glad we cleared this up. I thought you meant:
1) cautious, tactical
2) sometimes tactical, crazy loner who fires a lot of rounds

Smile

I guess in my last message I already gave my opinion on your newly created question, and I still stand by it... that is, that both are great, and both are needed. Which one is more effective... hmm. I'd say whichever one is better at their style lol. (easy way out of answering the question, I know). For example though, I'm more of a stay back kind of guy, whereas Seabass is more of an aggressive type of player. We're both good at our styles of play, but I'd say he's better at his than I am at mine, therefore, he wins a lot of the battles (unless I can use my teammates as bait lol Wink ). But I am constantly getting pushed to my limits as well by #2s - but I'm still better at being a #1 than I would be a #2.

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PostSubject: Re: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Fri May 02, 2008 11:33 am

Don't feel #2ed on ADMIN, Seabass bests me all the time lolol.
I think I will start a poll about this, please continue talking about it here, but Ace and ADMIN gave me a great idear... Check it out. I want to keep it seperate though, atleast for now.
http://airsoftforum.darkbb.com/tactics-f10/where-do-you-fall-between-aggression-and-caution-t245.htm
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PostSubject: Re: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Fri May 02, 2008 7:56 pm

Admin wrote:
Ace wrote:
So, Admin are #2 people useful or not? All of you guys say they are annoying during game play, and then you say he can be useful? Just a little confused.

Is anyone up for a #1.5? Large game play experience or not, if someone is charging at you and you are trying to be tactical, don't you have to switch to aggressive mode not to get lit up? I think a good mixture of both would be key. Learn to be aggressive AND patient.

As far as not communicating with #2 people I agree, but I have also played with #1 people who don't communicate, so aren't they just as useless to the team?
*red emphasis was done by Admin

I'm up for a 1.5 definitely.

But a #2 can be useful and annoying at the same time... why couldn't they? And I was saying that they typically are useless, but at times, if you can control their lack of patience/wrecklessness long enough to get them to go where you want them to and when you want them to, then they can be used a distraction or to weaken an enemy encampment. But I'd rather have a bunch of 1.5s and 1s.

I think the real problem with #2 comes down to the lack of teamwork. It needs to be clarified whether #2 has his whole squad also acting as #2s, or if he's just running and gunning on his own, with disregard to his team. Because my impression was #2 is the guy who during events:
1 - doesn't usually listen to orders well
2 - all he thinks about is getting his next kill
3 - usually the guy who runs out in front of everyone while yelling and spraying random shots
4 - is overly aggressive and finds himself among too many opponents at once
5 - when in a squad, he's the guy who is extremely "antsy," is rushing the group along, and is constantly trying to convince the squad leader to do what he wants to do (which is almost always ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK!)

BUT, if you have a #2, who's very tactical, and is a great team player who takes orders well, and is with a group of other players who are like him as well, they all just happen to be fairly aggressive/swift, then heck yeah they'll be effective. Just like a group of #1s who all are like-minded will do well together. Just sometimes there will be a problem when #1s and #2s mix.

And also, in response to your comment I highlighted in red, I would say if someone's charging you, aggressive mode most likely won't be an effective answer. I mean I think back to all our practices (team juggernauts) and even in your case Ace, when someone's attacking you (we all) do one of two things:
1 - dig in and set up a defensive position to fend off the attack.
or
2 - tactically retreat back to a better position where you can put up a better fight.


I don't remember any instances where any one of us are having someone charge at us while firing on us and us decide that the smart thing to do would be to turn around and move in on them (being aggressive). That'd be suicide. If you're being charged, I'd say you'd never want to be aggressive with them, unless your definition of being aggressive simply means returning lots of fire (which is a given). If you happen to turn the tables through your initial defensive response, and suddenly they're on the retreat, then heck yeah you should be aggressive - get'em on the run!! Twisted Evil

Oh yeah, and good point about #1s who don't communicate as well too. There are plenty of those as well (and I'd say they're almost useless too)

I guess "aggressive" was not what I meant. What I mean is your tactical mentality changes when someone is charging at you. You have to be quicker with your decisions to get in the best possible position to defend yourself. Does that sound better?
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PostSubject: Re: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Sat May 03, 2008 2:27 am

Ace wrote:

I guess "aggressive" was not what I meant. What I mean is your tactical mentality changes when someone is charging at you. You have to be quicker with your decisions to get in the best possible position to defend yourself. Does that sound better?

Yeah, sorry about that. Smile I'm sometimes terrible at understanding what people mean online. Anyway, I do agree with that statement. I constantly have to change my style of play (from extreme #1 to extreme #2 and everything in between those) in order to react the different situations I'm in - esp. while being charged. Those that can't adapt won't last too long Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:01 pm

Ok before I say anything else... I am in the Navy. My rate is an FMF Corpsman, meaning I am a combat medic. I have deployed to Afghanistan for 9 months, Kuwait for 6 and Djibouti for 6. My airsoft experiences are slim to none. As a matter of fact I shot an airsoft gun for the first time last night. I am currently stationed in a shore duty, which means that I work in a clinic and live in the barracks. Anyways, my buddy got his airsoft guns sent out to him yesterday. He has some sniper rifle, not sure what it is. Our barracks are 6 buildings kind of arranged in a giant rectangle. Well in the middle of the area are a few smoke decks and a large area with picnic tables. Well it just so happens that every night these guys go out there with there rap music blaring keeping us all awake. So ... there it was like eleven at night and my buddy gets his rifle out, we part the window a bit set up a table and keep the gun a few feet back from the blinds and take aim at these miscreants. One of them had his back to us sitting on a table. I take aim, fire, BAM! Hit the dude right in the back. They turned off there music and scattered, looking everywhere for the cause. They were looking in the bushes, at the windows, the parking Iot... I have never laughed harder in my entire life. I know its wrong on so many levels and illegal but omg I just want to do it again. So the result of this was, I went online and ordered a UTG MK96 Shadow Ops Spring Airsoft Sniper Rifle Black.

Operation: Spring
Fire mode(s): Manual cocking
Muzzle velocity: 475-480 fps w/ .2g BB 395-400 fps w/ .3g BB
Effective range: 190-210 feet
Ammo type: .2g to .3g
Hop Up: Adjustable
Weight: 8.5 lbs
Magazine capacity: 23 rds

I really don't know anything about airsoft but its what my buddy picked out so I got it lol.

Ok so back to the question. I thought about my experiences on deployment, paintball and COD4. On deployment we are all the first option because its the real deal. In paintball I tend to be a mix of the two one because I like to win and 2 because I like pain lol. On COD4 for me its about the kill to death ratio. Using the first style sniping or sitting back with an M4 with red dot, I tend to camp using claymores, watching where my teammates are going and then covering the flank. I usually die once or twice per game with about 10 to 20 kills. Now on COD4 when I use the second option I do get more kills but I rack up quite a few deaths.
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DOA Draven
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PostSubject: Re: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:33 am

Ouch my head hurts, actually had to think about this one Very Happy and at my ripe old age that's hard work.

I'm withoutta doubt a #1 style of player, and have a lot of #2 style players in the same game.

It is certainly true that the #2 players get more kills during the game day than I ever will, just by sheer chance they are likely to run into more fire fights, hence more chance of a kill. While I slink around awaiting that perfect moment for a single kill. And when I meet a #2 player group, they will overwhelm me under a hail of BBs.

But this is airsoft, in a real steel situation, the #2 players would soon change their style of 'play' and be "Watch your language" sight more cautious.

I play MilSim, therefore being hit means more to me, than a #2 player who perhaps considers it nothing more than a trip to the respawn zone, and try again.
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Toby Jacobs
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PostSubject: Re: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:08 am

Being a sniper, I rarely play as #2. But i have found both to be effective. I think alot of it has to do with intimidating the other team. Would they be more likely to do something stupid if they were rushed and bombarded with bbs, or if there was very little fire at all? Being observant of how they play could help in determining this
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Sniper Fox
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PostSubject: Re: Psychology predispostions in airsoft.   Thu May 14, 2009 10:54 pm

I see where you're going with this, don't see how it could be something done as an assignment in college. Not that I know much about college itself, since I'm only a teen.

Just a little note, I don't backyard Airsoft, but here it is:

The way I see it when I play, number 2 usually gets noticed a bit more as a whole by a group or team. Number 1 is only noticed really by the people who get taken out, or see his or her skills visually. I'm sorry if I'm just restating someone else's post.

I tend to go number 2 at first, fired up and ready. Then I just ease slowly into number 1.
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