Cylinders Cylinders Cylinders.....

So, I've heard a bit around the Forum lately about Cylinders.
I have heard from a few members in a thread about Power that, If your upgrading Power, (Better Spring) That you would also need to throw a better Cylinder in as well. Why is that?
What Differs between Cylinders, how is one different from the next?
Who makes good Cylinders?
Why is it neccesary to "Upgrade" the Cylinder if you're getting a Better Spring?
I would think you would only need a better Cylinder if you were upgrading the Piston....Because Isn't that all the Cylinder is? A housing for the Piston? It just seems like a gold Tube to me......
Please somebody fill me in

I was going t ask the same thing the other day
also m14 HOW DID YOU GET THE ORANGE TIP OFF YOUR THOMPSON!? I've tried so many time today and have failed each time :C

Apparently double, when you upgrade the spring in your gun, the cylinder also needs to be replaced because of the power the spring produces, if you have a bad cylinder, it will get scratched up and that isn't very good for your gun.. Thats all I know

The cylinder is being pushed by the spring and if the cylinder is stock it is most likely to weak for an upgraded spring. The stronger spring will wear down and eventually break the cylinder. Most cylinders are made of a metal, stainless steal is a common type, and the only big difference I know of is the number of ports in it and the size. I would suggest Guarder as a good brand.

Sniper_32, I'll PM you.
HW, that cleared it up quite a bit, thank you. But you say the Cylinder gets pushed by the Spring.....How? I thought the Piston got pushed by the Spring, and the both move in and out of the Cylinder....correct me if I am wrong, which I most likely am.

EDIT: You also mention the only difference being the number of "Ports"...what are these and what makes them make the Cylinder "Stronger"?

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The cylinder is being pushed by the spring and if the cylinder

I know you mean the Piston, the cylinder donsn´t move .

When doing an Upgrade, changing out the Cylinder to work with the Main Spring only shows real benifits starting at the M120 level for Power Set ups, High speed setups are a different animal all together .

The reason for the Holes in the cylinder wall is to relieve some of the stress on the sector gear during compression, as the Piston and Piston head is being pulled back all the air is being sucked in thru the Nozzle, depending on the placement of the Hole ( FPS/ROF ), as the Piston Head `` O´´ ring passes over the hole, all suction pressure is relieved.


IMHO a holed cylinder is only needed when you are getting up above the M130 level, only due to the change in ROF as you increase the power of your Spring, Unless you are attempting to maintain your current ROF, with the increase of FPS, the cadence balances itself out.

Example,
V2 GB with a M120, Installed Bore Up cylinder and piston head with a ROF of 23 BB´s/sec on a 9,6V battery should be shooting around the 400 FPS level ( 393.6 ).

So we do a Spring up-grade to an M140 your FPS jumps up to around 460 FPS but your ROF drops to 14 BB´s/sec.

The system balances itself out, it only becomes problematic when we will keep the same ROF as when we started.

Type of Cylinder,
Standard- mostly made of Brass, some companies install steel, usualy the quality is O.K.
Bore Up- Increased inner diameter, larger air volume
Type `` O´´ , Cylinder wall has an oval hole in the middle of the Cylinder, used in Hi-ROF set-ups.
Type `` F ´´, hole in the cylincer wall usualy in the back 1/4 of the cylinder, some companies have more than 1 hole, the result is the same, relief of suction during compression.

Keep in mind when up-grading your cylinder, you will also need to upgrade the Cylinder head, Piston Head and `` O ´´ rings.

Guarder, Systema, Mad Bull, DeepFire,LayLax ( Prometheus ) all make excellent cylinders.

There are some sites on the net that reccomend polishing the inner wall of the cylinder to better increase the performance, don´t do it !!!

Your cylinders are already polished, and most of us don´t have the capability to evenly polish the inner wall the entire length of the cylinder.

These in Red are quoted from Slob...I hope it's your Color!

I know you mean the Piston, the cylinder donsn´t move .
I thought so!! whew I was really getting lost! No sweat HW, you still really helped.

When doing an Upgrade, changing out the Cylinder to work with the Main Spring only shows real benifits starting at the M120 level for Power Set ups, High speed setups are a different animal all together
What Differs in Cylinders when upgrading ROF vs. Power or Vice-Versa? Why?

The system balances itself out, it only becomes problematic when we will keep the same ROF as when we started.
Why is this?

Type of Cylinder,
Standard- mostly made of Brass, some companies install steel, usualy the quality is O.K.
Bore Up- Increased inner diameter, larger air volume
Type `` O´´ , Cylinder wall has an oval hole in the middle of the Cylinder, used in Hi-ROF set-ups.
Type `` F ´´, hole in the cylincer wall usualy in the back 1/4 of the cylinder, some companies have more than 1 hole, the result is the same, relief of suction during compression.
Thank you VERY much for this, it's already helped a lot, but could you explain why each one is used a bit more? And what they do differently?

Keep in mind when up-grading your cylinder, you will also need to upgrade the Cylinder head, Piston Head and `` O ´´ rings.
Why?

There are some sites on the net that reccomend polishing the inner wall of the cylinder to better increase the performance
Why do they polish the inside of the Cylinder? Is it so the spring and Piston will slide more smoothly?

Whew, that's all I got.
Thanks a lot for your time, Slob, and don't feel that you're not clear, I am just typically a slow learner and ask LOTS of question until I get the subject matter Nailed down. If you've already answered a question I just asked, I am sorry!!!

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and don't feel that you're not clear, I am just typically a slow learner

same here

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What Differs in Cylinders when upgrading ROF vs. Power or Vice-Versa? Why?

The difference in upgrading ROF and Power in regards to the cylinder is the Air Volume and in the Speed in which the piston is returned to the front position, the increase is all based on the Spring Power, a M140 is pushing the Piston forward faster and with more force than a M100, increasing the Pressure, giving you more FPS, but the system requires more power ( electricity ) and has to work harder slowing the firing cycle down ( unless you increase battery output ). The same opposite goes the other way, by reducing the spring power, the system can work easier and faster, decreasing your FPS, but increasing your ROF, the firing cycle is faster because the motor can operate easier, less strain or load.

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The system balances itself out, it only becomes problematic when we will keep the same ROF as when we started.
Why is this?

To keep the same ROF, and Increasing the FPS requires that you need to upgrade other Parts as well, not just the cylinder and Spring, the first would be a larger battery, depending on the size of the increase in Spring power, Gears, Motor, GB Shell, may also need upgrading, you can´t run standard gears on a M130 for long, they just wont handle the load.
Then if you drop in Helical Gears, the piston also needs to be changed out, using a Full Tooth piston on Helical Gears, increases the load on the gears and motor. A Half Tooth piston, is designed to offer the best results due to the slanted cut of the Gears.

Quote :

Standard- mostly made of Brass, some companies install steel, usualy the quality is O.K.
Bore Up- Increased inner diameter, larger air volume
Type `` O´´ , Cylinder wall has an oval hole in the middle of the Cylinder, used in Hi-ROF set-ups.
Type `` F ´´, hole in the cylincer wall usualy in the back 1/4 of the cylinder, some companies have more than 1 hole, the result is the same, relief of suction during compression.
Thank you VERY much for this, it's already helped a lot, but could you explain why each one is used a bit more? And what they do differently?

Bore up Cylinder is just an Increase in the overall available air volume inside of the Cylinder due to the larger Diameter, positive results are realy first noticed at the M120 level.

Type `` O´´ Cylinder, the hole in the middle is to relieve the stress on the Gears during compression relativly early, at about the first third of the compression cycle, easing motor strain, allowing the motor to compress the spring with the minimal amount of load possible.
This cylinder is used mainly in a CQB High ROF gun, MP-5, minimum range, maximum output of BB´s.

Type `` F ´´, Hole in the back 1/4 of the cylinder, this is to relieve the gears and Motor of strain when they have the to work the hardest, when the Spring is almost at it´s maximum compression, shortly before release and firing.

Quote :

Keep in mind when up-grading your cylinder, you will also need to upgrade the Cylinder head, Piston Head and `` O ´´ rings.
Why?

A standard Piston Head, `` O´´ Rings have a smaller Diameter than the New cylinder, Air Leak or no seal at all.

A Cylinder Up-Grade is usualy done in connection with a Spring Up-Grade, the Standard Piston Head, and Cylinder Head are not set up or designed for the added impact pressure or force.
On the other side, if you are doing just a ROF Up-Grade, the Piston Head, and Cylinder Head will handle the work load easily, with no problems.

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There are some sites on the net that reccomend polishing the inner wall of the cylinder to better increase the performance
Why do they polish the inside of the Cylinder? Is it so the spring and Piston will slide more smoothly?

This is one of the Myths in AS,
There is no reason in the world to attempt to polish the inside of the Cylinder, they are already polished by the manufature, and with a vented Piston Head, there is no contact of `` O´´ ring with the Cylinder wall during compression, the ring is sucked onto the Piston head during compression, and pushed against the piston walls during Firing.

Final note, a lot of manufactures are Teflon coating their cylinders, Polishing them just removes it.

slob212 wrote:

Bore up Cylinder is just an Increase in the overall available air volume inside of the Cylinder due to the larger Diameter, positive results are realy first noticed at the M120 level.

Type `` O´´ Cylinder, the hole in the middle is to relieve the stress on the Gears during compression relativly early, at about the first third of the compression cycle, easing motor strain, allowing the motor to compress the spring with the minimal amount of load possible.
This cylinder is used mainly in a CQB High ROF gun, MP-5, minimum range, maximum output of BB´s.

Type `` F ´´, Hole in the back 1/4 of the cylinder, this is to relieve the gears and Motor of strain when they have the to work the hardest, when the Spring is almost at it´s maximum compression, shortly before release and firing.

Ahhh, I think I'm catching on!! Soo,
Bore ups are used when increasing power, but not by a huge ammount (I.E. an M120 )
Type O's are used in High ROF upgrades, because it has the hole in the middle which reduces pressure and eases the compression and makes it much quicker, not Stronger.
And lastly Type F is used in guns that are really packing a punch and need a bit of relief, that's why that hole is in the back 1/4 so that last forth is easy and reduces strain....I can't explain my understanding of it well but I DO understand!! I hope.

slob212 wrote:

A standard Piston Head, `` O´´ Rings have a smaller Diameter than the New cylinder, Air Leak or no seal at all.

A Cylinder Up-Grade is usualy done in connection with a Spring Up-Grade, the Standard Piston Head, and Cylinder Head are not set up or designed for the added impact pressure or force.
On the other side, if you are doing just a ROF Up-Grade, the Piston Head, and Cylinder Head will handle the work load easily, with no problems.

So, If I'm upgrading my ROF I don't need to upgrade the Cylinder head, Piston head, and O ring, but when upgrading velocity I do.
The only thing I don't understand is this:
Wouldn't an O ring with a smaller Daimeter Prevent gas leak and have a better seal than one with a larger diameter?

Is the cylinder, in combination with the Motor, why people say you need to "Pick ONE of the Two Routes", Velocity or ROF? You can't go extreme in both because you need to pick one Cylinder or the other?

Thank you for all of your time once again, you're always a great help.

You got it nailed on the types and applications for the different types, the Bore -Up Cylinder only starts to show positive results at the M120 level, at higher tuning levels the benifits are greatly increased .

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So, If I'm upgrading my ROF I don't need to upgrade the Cylinder head, Piston head, and O ring, but when upgrading velocity I do.
The only thing I don't understand is this:
Wouldn't an O ring with a smaller Daimeter Prevent gas leak and have a better seal than one with a larger diameter?

Is the cylinder, in combination with the Motor, why people say you need to "Pick ONE of the Two Routes", Velocity or ROF? You can't go extreme in both because you need to pick one Cylinder or the other?

Bingo !!! Give the man a Cupie Doll !!!!

It´s not the `` O´´ ring by itself that has a smaller Diameter, it is also the Piston Head, the larger diameter rings to match the Cylinder give a better Seal.

Picking one road to travel is the Best option, trying to combine both High ROF with High FPS, just costs money and nerves.

A High ROF Set-Up, can be achieved in a standard box with the minimum amount of stress on the wallet, on the other hand a High FPS Set-up requires digging a little deeper, the Standard GB shell can´t and won´t handle the loads, then come the Bushings, Gears, Cylinder, Piston, Piston Head, Cylinder Head, Spring Guide, Tappet Plate, Nozzle, Motor, Pinion Gear, Battery.

This may be a stupid analogy but think of it this way, What do you think would happen if you wrapped Danica Patricks Indy car around John Forces Top Fuel Funny Car motor, and then turn it around, Johns Car wrapped around her motor. Then send them both onto the tracks that their cars were designed to race.

ALRIGHT!! w00t!!
In case you're wondering why I've asked this question, and ones Similar to it lately, I'm preparing to do all my upgrades myslef ASAP down the road so I can stop paying my Locale Store the OUTRAGOUS prices and wait the even WORSE waiting periods....their Gun Tech, Bo, has had my KWA M4 for three weeks.
All I wanted was a TBB!!
Sorry for the off-topic rant, but that's the background on all these questions....prepare yourself for me because I won't stop until I know EVERYTHING In and Out on my AS Replicas!

Thanks again for all your help though I really appreciate it. That goes to everybody!!