Ranks AFU

Ok, so I wanted to get some opinion on ranks and position.

Before I begin I would like to clear one thing. The AFU is not a team, it is a group of individual or multiple teams who are enthusiastic about airsoft. It is a means for us to be able to contact each other, etc. There might be teams within the AFU, but we ourself do not advertise as a team. That being said we still have a ranking system. Also, you are not required to possess anything airsoft related to join.

So by attending a AFU hosted event you automatically become a Private FIrst Class, it then requires 1 point to advance to lance Corporeal (A point is defined as any 5 hour + event with 6 or more people, this is subject to change pending the number of members in the AFU).

In order to advance to Corporeal you are required to purchase your own airsoft rifle, then (After you have the rifle) you must obtain 1 point.

The ranks Sergeant and up to Gunnery Sergeant require 3 points each, and to obtain gunnery sergeant you are required to have a full uniform (Shirt, Pants, Boots, Approved eye protection, helmet/hat).

The ranks Master Sergeant/First Sergeant and up to Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps (Being Sergeant Major of the AFU) require 5 points each.

The ranks Warrant Officer 1 and up to Chief Warrant Officer require 10 points each.

The ranks Second Lieutenant and up to General Requires you to win a AFU hosted tournament (A tournament being any hosted even with 12 + members using a free for all style, until there are enough teams to accommodate for that this is pending to change based upon the member status of the AFU).


The reason we use this style is to get newer airsofters a chance to experience the game, at the same time forcing them to commit to buying some equipment. Then we encourage people to attend as many events as possible until they have to start winning ranks.

At the same time being caught breaking something off our rules page or from our code of conduct is grounds for a court martial (regardless of how many points you have it is still a full rank down).

So, suggestions, criticism?

Thats a cool systems. But how often do you have tournaments?

Tournaments are rare! We actually haven't had any yet (due to our member status). But we'll probably set it up to have a tournament every couple of months once we establish our member base more.

It looks good, but you should really promote getting guns/gear sooner. IMO you will end up with a lot of Sgt's running around bossing the pvt/cpl who may have just as much experience as them..

Maybe have a butt private(graduation rank), then when he gets his own gun he gets a rank up to pvt 1st class, then Cpl when he gets vest/BDU's gear etc etc. IMO Sergeants know what there doing in the real Military so they should know what there doing in airsoft.

I really like the ranking system, I think it adds a whole new level to the game. keep it up!

sticks

Basing rank off hours played is a great way to organize your teams

You actually have a very good point that I haven't thought of before. . . "Sergeants run the Marines, but don't tell the commadant."

That is a very good point.

So basically (As a summary)

they would be required to have a rifle to obtain corporeal (Some responsibility) and to obtain sergeant they would need full gear (A lot of responsibility). I think I'll actually switch it to that.

Thats a VERY nice ranking systen you have. great consideration for things over here in MO....

That just solved my team argueing about ranks if you don't mind of course.

Not at all. In fact, let me post a link that has all the ranks, as well as the patches.

http://www.military-quotes.com/ranks/marine-rank-insignia.htm

You can see the order of procession using that. I also have a copy on my website.

Quote :

IMO you will end up with a lot of Sgt's running around bossing the pvt/cpl who may have just as much experience as them..

Here is one of the Biggest problems when teams attempt to follow a Military basis when forming their teams.
I am a staunch opponent of a `` Rank ´´ system, it tends to lead to more problems than it eliminates.

A rank System promotes Segregation, Ranked players will tend to hang with their own, talk among themselves, either for the good or the bad, information that would help in the further development of the team stay compartment-ed and doesn´t get forwarded.

A Rank system is starting to bring a team really close to the `` Paramilitary ´´ style of Play, and as you get closer to presenting a Paramilitary style team, to the uninformed, you will also be seen as bordering on a Racist group of individuals, sorry to say that , but that's the way it is.

Problems with the Rank system that you posted, moving people up and forward based on how many times they attend games of events, `` Promoting ´´ players on how fast they purchase and have their gear,
- Depending on Occupation, some people have more time to participate, Shift workers, Students.... are going to be penalized because `` they have to Work, or Study ?? ´´

-Budget, AirSoft is a Hobby/Sport that is constantly changing, people are always changing their equipment, appearance, style of play. The players that are better off Financially are going to be Promoted Faster than the players that have to save for a bit ? Do you really think that is Fair ??

- Quality of equipment, if somebody goes down to Walmart and picks up a little cheap M4 for 50$ attends one game or event, he is going to get bumped up before the player that is saving so he/she can purchase a gun that will benefit his/her style of play, and the overall performance of the team.

You want to establish a Rank structure ?? What comes next ?? Awards ?? Medals ??
Are you going to start awarding CIB´s to players that have `` X ´´ many of Games Events experience, Bronze Stars to players that Rescue their Team Mates from getting Captured ??
Medals of Honor to the Player that is the last one on the Field, and manages to pull of the `` WIN ´´ all by him-/herself ??? ( 10 year olds playing backyard AS do that ).

Court Marshall's, sorry AFU, but that is just absurd !!!

Having a Team internal structure is needed, and a must, I agree, but it should be based on merits, not on how fast people can buy their Equipment, uniform, or time spent on the Playing field.
Your leaders should be Respected on what they can accomplish on the Field not by how good they look, type of gun the are using.

How do plan on developing your Hidden Leaders, the players who hang in the wings, have hidden skills or Ideas, are able to develop the situation, understand what is going on around them, able to think on their feet, and re-act without having to be told what to do.

Example, ...

`` Havoc Harry, has the cash, and the time to buy everything he needs and can attend every Game or Event, he is moved up to the Rank of LT. lickity split !! ´´ `` He looks great, has the best of everything, really promotes and presents a professional appearance for himself and for the Team, but in reality he can´t load a magazine without watching video instructions, and getting help from one of the SGT´s. So now you have somebody on the field, leading, giving `` Orders ´´, and sending other players( team-mates) to the assembly area or re-spawn point with wild abandon, and of course, he is not wrong, nobody listened and did what he said ( His Excuse ).

Anybody that has been in the AS community for more than six months, has come across this, a rank structure promotes it.

If you want to get your Players to purchase their own equipment, give them a Time Line,

Guests become a `` LOANER ´´ to play, maximal 3 Games. Then they must decide to Join or not.
New players have 60 Days to Purchase their own Rifle.
120 Days for uniform ( Standard team uniform, ACU, Digi, Marpat.... or just a Uniform, wear what you like. )
180 days a Side arm.
270 Day Communication equipment ( If you use it )

Depending on what your needs are, you can later adjust for additional equipment, NOD´s, Heavy Weapons, EWD´s .....

The players that can´t meet the Time Line shouldn't be thrown out, just restricted to the type of games or events you participate in, local fun games, Everybody Plays, Games against other teams, Only players with their own Rifle´s, Larger events, only Players that have all the required equipment.

Penalties......

You need to have a team Charter, explaining all the internal team rules and requirements.

Age Restrictions, either for membership or participating in events.
Criminal History ?
Training Schedule
Expectations from Individuals
Weapon Strengths, FPS, ROF, ( all three classes, side arm, primary, heavy )( and who can use what )
Use of Pyrotechnics ( Allowed ?? What Kind ?? Home Made ?? )
Use of Chemical or synthetic substances, ( CS, CN,..... )
Type of Munition to be Used ( Plastic, Alu, Glass, BIO....)
Behavior of Players ( Fighting, Arguing, Insulting....)
Penalties for rule violations (Warning ? Money ? Suspension ? Expulsion ? )

AS is for everybody !! not just for the Players with Prior Mil. experience, not just for the Players that can Pass the APFT in the 250 to 300 point range.

I´m not the one to tell you how to organize you Team, or Collection of Members, but I can tell you this, if you want to base it on a Military system, you will run into problems later, the first you will experience is when you go to or sponsor events, and a large number of Players are active or ex-military, and a large number of players are just that. At a minimum you can expect a not to pleasant discussion, at worst being Blacklisted, Ostracized, or completely ignored.

O.K Guys, Hit me with your Best shot !!! Everybody else likes the Idea of a Rank Structure, and being the only opponent ( so far ), I am ready to defend it. !!!

One last side note,
Everybody wants to have a `` Team ´´, but nobody wants to invest the time or energy to making it a functional `` Original ´´ Team.

Copy the FBI, DEA, SAS, USMC, USA, USAF, NG, Blackwater, SALA, and so on, and we are `` Cool´´, we are a Team !!! WRONG !!

slob212 wrote:

A rank System promotes Segregation, Ranked players will tend to hang with their own, talk among themselves, either for the good or the bad, information that would help in the further development of the team stay compartment-ed and doesn´t get forwarded.

Actually, that is not our problem. My problem is getting group A, who have been friends all their life and formed a team together, to talk with group B, who have also been friends all their life and want to start a team, but have never known group A until they joined the AFU.

So far the Rank system has helped this a little, because the officers of those teams are officers in the AFU, and the teams will sometimes separate with different officers, so we have finally managed to intermingle the groups, although for practice purposes we usually allow teams to operate with each other.

slob212 wrote:

A Rank system is starting to bring a team really close to the `` Paramilitary ´´ style of Play, and as you get closer to presenting a Paramilitary style team, to the uninformed, you will also be seen as bordering on a Racist group of individuals, sorry to say that , but that's the way it is.

Actually, higher ranks in the AFU only matter during an operation with the highest ranked person. Meaning Team A has four (4) people, one a sergeant, one a Private FIrst Class, and two are Privates, the PFC can't boss the privates around unless the sergeant is shot. This way we maintain who is in charge without actually creating a hierarchy, we had a group of kids get into a fight once about who was the "captain." This is why we now have age restrictions on joining, and that group is not allowed back (I had to actually arrive and break up the fight after someone else told me it was happening).

slob212 wrote:

Problems with the Rank system that you posted, moving people up and forward based on how many times they attend games of events, `` Promoting ´´ players on how fast they purchase and have their gear,
- Depending on Occupation, some people have more time to participate, Shift workers, Students.... are going to be penalized because `` they have to Work, or Study ??

I didn't mention this in the original post because I thought it was irrelevant to the subject, but I give slack to people I know are serious about playing airsoft, this is of course mentioned to all members. So let us say Student A loves airsoft, and keeps pestering me day and night with questions (true story, and I answered every one to the best of my abilities). But Student A can't attend a lot of events because he has school on the days we go, and on the weekends he has to go to work. Furthermore he can't afford to purchase an airsoft rifle or equipment because his car payment takes all of his money away. I actually then try to schedule events with him in mind, help him out a little and I bought his airsoft rifle for him, allowing him to pay me back little by little each month ($10 dollar minimum a month (agreed by both of us)). So, I actively try to help all our members.

slob212 wrote:

-Budget, AirSoft is a Hobby/Sport that is constantly changing, people are always changing their equipment, appearance, style of play. The players that are better off Financially are going to be Promoted Faster than the players that have to save for a bit ? Do you really think that is Fair ??

Actually It was the greater consensus at one point (because the basics for the AFU eventually run as a democracy, will not get into how that works) that we not allow people to join who do not have an airsoft rifle and equipment. I didn't want to use this policy because I wanted to attract not just veteran airsoft players, but new players to airsoft too. It took a lot of talking in circles to actually reach this compromise (At first the rank system had nothing to do with equipment).

slob212 wrote:

You want to establish a Rank structure ?? What comes next ?? Awards ?? Medals ??
Are you going to start awarding CIB´s to players that have `` X ´´ many of Games Events experience, Bronze Stars to players that Rescue their Team Mates from getting Captured ??
Medals of Honor to the Player that is the last one on the Field, and manages to pull of the `` WIN ´´ all by him-/herself ??? ( 10 year olds playing backyard AS do that ).

Actually we do have rewards, pizza for everyone (as long as everyone pitches in enough money that we can buy it, and all participants have to pitch in the same amount). Not that great of a prize, it isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but people seem to enjoy it (negotiations available to those who don't like pizza).

slob212 wrote:

Court Marshall's, sorry AFU, but that is just absurd !!!

Because we will eventually attract a lot of different people, from teams, to individuals etc. It is most understandable that someone will try to cheat a few times. It was my hope that by court marshaling, we could punish cheaters and still give them another chance. Because if they cheat a second time they will be kicked out of the AFU. I know it is harsh, but I can not stand cheaters.

slob212 wrote:

Having a Team internal structure is needed, and a must, I agree, but it should be based on merits, not on how fast people can buy their Equipment, uniform, or time spent on the Playing field.
Your leaders should be Respected on what they can accomplish on the Field not by how good they look, type of gun the are using.

That is a very good point, but I assume if a leader is unqualified and the whole group he is leading thinks this, a simply coup d'état will take care of it ^_^.

slob212 wrote:

If you want to get your Players to purchase their own equipment, give them a Time Line,

Unfortunately even with a timeline a lot of operators would be unable to fit a timetable, at least with the rank structure they can continue playing without promotions (which would be the same if I got rid of the ranks). Under a timetable they would feel pressured to purchase their equipment before they are ready.

But you have made several very good and accurate points. I will have to consider all of them further.

@ AFU,

We are in agreement on almost all Points, it is just that I am absolutely, 100%, without discussion, against using Rank to denominate just who is what and who is in charge.

Establishing a Chain of Command is essential, given, not everybody can be Chief, and there are the Players that no mater how hard you try, they will never do the job until they are the last person from the team still on the Field.

Then again you always have the Players that think they know everything better than the person doing the job.

What I have found that works to identify both of the above named personalities, is to give everybody the chance, and not to be to evil or mean spirited, when it comes to the know it alls, set them against a loaded deck. Divide your team, let the know it all, go against the best, most respected player, chances are the Know it All will have his hat handed to him.

I like your award System, Pizza is a great Idea, and I´m sure not just the Awardee gets to take part. Another way to build up Comradere.

Discipline is one of the Hidden attributes to a good player, or a good team of players, tossing the guys that fight is always the right thing to do, you are trying to build a Team, not Babysit.

We have zero tolerance for it in our team, have had one incident, and the party involved was sent packing, right then and there, to this day he is an outcast, other teams will also have nothing to do with him.

The ways that you support and are attempting to get everybody working together and to support each other are for the most part really solid and good idea´s, payment plans, scheduling training and games for max participation, some of them are even more tolerant than us, Cheaters only get 1 chance, if they do it again they go home.

Some ideas you may also want to try,

Tuning Days-
We all gather together to assist players that are having trouble with their weapons, or just need help with, this or that.
Test new Parts, Guns, Gear, Commo Equipment.
Test new tuning Techniques, Short Stroking, Tooth Removal, Changing Gear Ratio´s
Battery testing, Mini´s, Large, Lipo´s, Bastard Creations ( Guess who does that )

Gather the Players together, get people talking to each other, introduces new players, brings the entire group closer together, is also a good, informal opportunity to air out differences, or touch on subjects that are bother people.

No Weapon, Training Events. ( We tie this together with our Grill Party´s, Once a month starting in the Spring )

This can get a little tricky at the beginning, but once people get into it you will see a marked improvement during bigger games and Events.

Your Players go out into the training are just as they are organized during a regular game, Divide the Players into 2 Teams, the events are basically a Force on Force, with the Same objective, ie Locate, Capture, and return said object to Point ``A´´.

Each player wears a 3x5 card with a number written on it ( we tape, or pin them on the Left breast pocket), each card has a different number written on it, a player is considered HIT, when his name and number is called out. ( it goes without saying that covering the cards is forbidden )

Snipers go on the field with just their Scopes,
Commanders / Scouts with just their Bino´s
Everybody else is forced to use their senses.
If a sniper in position is spotted, he is out, failed at the Job.

Emphasis should be placed on Small Leader Tactics, Hand and Arm Signals, Movement Techniques, RATELO procedures ( If you use Radios ). There is no winner or loser, everybody wins, you are getting individuals to rely on their individual skills, and to develop them further, it also gets the newer players more involved without having to worry about being out done by the guy on the field with the 1300$ Systema PTW.

Kangaroo Court

4 times a year we have a Kangaroo Court, Evidence is presented showing just how Goofy and Screwy our leaders have performed, most of the time it is Pictures or Video ( one of my Evidence Pics is here ), now the purpose is not to penalize or punish, but to show that not everybody has all the answers or that everybody is perfect. It doesn´t have to be limited to just the Leaders, it should include all members. It should also be be Presented with Humour, another defining character trait of your true Leaders ( they should also be able to laugh at themselves )( going to have to post the Video, showing me knocking myself out cold, 6ft, 220lbs DOES NOT have a chance against a Brick wall !!! )

The whole reason for the Kangaroo Court is to have Fun, let off a little Steam, Poke fun at each other, but not Point Fingers.

If using a Rank system works for you, then go ahead and use it, it´s just that I have seen it create more problems than it solves.

Maybe you should dumb down the ranking system a little. Slob makes some really Don't use the Lord's name in vain. points that I didn't even think of.

Ie, there are no Military ranks, just SL(Squad Leader), XO(Force commander/executive officer), and a CO(commanding officer).

This would be really easy to do if you pull Teams together to be apart of AFU. The single teams(fire teams/squads in AFU), would elect a SL. If they ahd a problem with that SL then they can report it to the CO/XO who would hold another vote for another SL. CO's and XO's would be elected by the whole AFU, meaning there is no fighting or cases or favoritism. If someone thinks the CO/XO isn't doing a good job, he would go to the SL who would hold another vote for CO/XO. Kinda like checks and balances.

In AO events, there are only CO/XO, and SL's. It works out really well because we draws separate teams together who have their own systems for plan B if their SL goes down. Some times out CO's have been really bad, sometimes they have been good. We do not have set sides so I cannot account for the checks and Balances system, but in theory it makes sense.

If everything is Democratic it leaves very little room for complaining; which means AFU will probably last longer, with less drama involved.

Thanks for the imput Slob! It really made me think alot more.

sticks

Hmm, those are very good point. I think I am going to rework it with that in mind, because your are absolutely right.

^_^ I like the sound of the kangaroo court system.

wow. Im really glad I read this entire thing.

Slob, you guys have some great ideas. Keep them coming.

Ok, so using sticks method I think it would be something like this.

All voting must be done in the presence of at least 75% of the AFU (Can be done online if a suitable means is available).

A vote to remove someone can be done at any time, and official voting is done yearly.

General-Voted on by the whole AFU for their region (obviously there is only one (1) region, but in the possibility someone from another state/city joins). The function of the General would be to organize/host events/tournaments, as well as any other get together. Also maintenance of the website would fall to the general. Other than that, no actual leadership ability on the field. Only person authorized to kick someone out of the AFU (Given good reason). Can be removed with a majority vote of the AFU.

Brigadier General-To Assist and help the General.

Captain-Voted on by each team to lead/represent their team, Is in command of that team for all operations/events/tournaments (Can be removed with a majority vote of that team). A person voted as General CAN serve as captain if also voted for that.

First Lieutenant-The only rank not voted on, given to a individual of the captain's choice as his second in command, assist the captain, takes command if the captain is shot. Only keeps position for as long as the captain who promoted him is still captain.

Sergeant-(Only used with exceptionally large teams). They just help to keep order with large numbers, each having their own sub-team. Voted on by the whole team.

All names pending.

It is also the general's/Brig gen job to order pizza, but it falls to the captains to figure out how many pizzas, and how much each person must give (All pizza parties are held for the ENTIRE AFU). Teams can order a pizza individually, as separate of the AFU if they want, but not on a AFU pizza party! WOOOOOO Pizza!

yeah that sounds better than the origional idea. This way you can keep people from having power trips. Democracy is the key.

IMO if your using a USMC ranking system you should probably lower the ranks to be accurate of the number of people you have, unfortunately this varies alot between different unit depending on their mission requirements. A good building block would be to say that a Platoon is equal to 80men(More or less depending on your group size...), within those 80 men, there are 8 squads(10 per squad), and 16-20 fireteams. etc etc.

You know you could always make your own ranking system, IMO if you want to replicate anything from the forces do it right.... But do not identify yourself as one of those peopl(ie, wearing real patches).

Sorry got a little off topic there, thats all I have to say about your newest list. The modded list is a pretty good idea.

sticks

Actually, a rule in the AFU is that you can only wear two patches (if you desire to have patches).

The AFU Patch, and a custom team patch. We don't support the use of any other team patch.

EDIT: Yeah, the names are pending, this was just a quick summary of what I was thinking after reading your post. Also, the brig general (I forgot to mention) is also voted on by the AFU, he is not appointed by the General.

Ok I changed some things.

General/Brig General are still the same

Captain is now Sergeant

First Lieutenant is now corporeal

And Captain is a specialty rank given to Sergeants (temporarily or permanently) whenever two or more groups merge together and become too large for a single sergeant to command. A captain is chosen by that group from the existing Sergeants. He can be replaced at any time by any other Sergeant with a majority vote. To become a Captain you must first Become a Sergeant.

I have not read everything becuase Il have to go in a few minutes.

Ok if you want to go working military style then you need a serperation of grade and rank. Grade is what you ware by doing what you say but to have athority (rank) you have to be put in the position by a leader. This is how the corps work. I have seen a Captin in charge of about 100 other officers higher and lower grade then him but he was the highest rank there. Another example of this is the president. Now of days our pesidents are not exmilitary so they had no grade but they have the highest rank.

@Jman

You are talking about `` Operational Command ´´.

A Junior Ranked or Graded Commander may have Operational Command, but his command authority does not supersede the Rank of Higher individuals. A Captain with Operational Command, has the Authority to make decisions based on Mission needs, but he/she does not Out-Rank the other Officers of Higher pay grade.

Presidents, regardless of prior military experience, are Civilians, and their Authority over the Military Leaders is given to them by the Constitution.

I updated the ranks a little bit.

When teams merge together, the speciality rank First Lieutenant is now Second Lieutenant.

Official teams are the only area in the AFU were ranking is permanent.
Official meaning you represent the AFU as a group team, not an individual team.

Each rank in official teams is one (1) above normal ranks.

So instead of being a captain, you are a Major
Instead of Second Lieutenant, you are First Lieutenant
Instead of Sergeant you are Warrant officer 1
Instead of Corporeal you are Staff Sergeant

Official teams are also the only place in the AFU where you see us go down to 4 ranks that are permanent (Designated by the Major, meaning the major promotes/demotes within his team).

In the normal ranking system, you will see sergeant/corporeal, and you will only see lance corporeal/captain/second lieutenant as a speciality rank that is 95% of them time temporary.

Because the team can't vote on a Major (as he is permanent) you may leave the group at any time (meaning unsuccessful majors will be majors of nothing).

Forming a official team in the AFU requires several steps

1. Universal Uniform-Required to be AFU official Uniform
2. The AFU patch, and a custom team patch
3. A primary and secondary weapon
~~~~~~~~~~~a. Weapons are not required to match at first
4. Ability to purchase various airsoft items within reasonable time.

slob212 wrote:

@Jman

You are talking about `` Operational Command ´´.

A Junior Ranked or Graded Commander may have Operational Command, but his command authority does not supersede the Rank of Higher individuals. A Captain with Operational Command, has the Authority to make decisions based on Mission needs, but he/she does not Out-Rank the other Officers of Higher pay grade.

Presidents, regardless of prior military experience, are Civilians, and their Authority over the Military Leaders is given to them by the Constitution.

@slob
rank is what you earn, grade is what you wear.

Lol, Jman its the other way around.

You earn a grade(paygrade), and you wear Rank.

sticks

Actually sticks is correct, each rank comes with a different pay-grade.

this site will tell you each rank and its pay-grade http://www.military-quotes.com/ranks/marine-rank-insignia.htm