9/11 Trials in NYC

just a quick fact, ask satan he has this guy for social studies.
this teacher at my school used to work in a mall concession stand selling something. and next to him were to arabian guys who were kinda friendly and they gave him this ring. well when 911 happened he soon found out that these guys did the recon for the attacks. liek they took the pictures and partially planned it.

Man o Man, I so don´t want to touch this but here goes,

First, @BullettheBlueSkky

Quote :

The people that do this kind of stuff are Islamic fanatics. They WANT to die. According to their religion, the only way for them to go to heaven is to die in jihad- holy war. So really these terrorists aren't necessarily terrorist at all. They're just performing their religion, which is Islam, to go to their heaven.

You are so incredibly wrong in so many ways this hurts,
take some time and read the Qur'an, it is a religeon of peace, it is the twisted fanatic that turns the Chapters and Verse to suit their sick needs, drawing the hard of thinking to their cause because of some precieved or past experiance.
The Qurán calls for Jihad, only in protection of the Islamic Religeon, there are no Chapters or Verses saying that you should go blow yourself to kingdom come for your 33, 40, or 70 virgins ( ever wonder why the number always changes ? ), there are no Chapter or Verses saying you need to kill as many Innocent Gentile in order to be in good favor with the Dude Upstairs.

I know what you are thinking,
`` O.K. slob you might be right, but the are the only ones going around blowing the bejesus out of everybody and everything right now. ´´

and I would almost agree with you, but lets just take a few seconds and think about the not so distant past,
Timothy McVeigh, Irish Catholic
Terry Lynn Nichols , Catholic
Jeffery Dahmer, fundamentalist-creationist.

The FBI gave the standard profile of a serial killer, He is a person with few friends. He became much more religious just before he started murdering people. After reading all the available studies I could find and studying all the articles in the newspapers for over 30 years, I find what is most outstanding is Serial killers were sexually inhibited by their strong religious upbringing.
Nearly all serial killers are very devout men who were raised by members of Pentecostal sects, fundamentalist Catholics or were 'hard-shell' Baptists and Methodists."

Let´s go a little further back
Hitler, Christian
Mousollini, Roman Catholic
Stalin, Protestant

It is the sick, the twisted, the few who know what to say and to who, that cause the damage, that kill the innocent, for their own religeous or political gains.
Don´t fall into the trap, of believing the crap, that is spread by others, or you end up being no better than your enemy.

In the words of Mr. Gump,
`` That´s all´I´m going to say ´bout that ´´

slob212 wrote:

Man o Man, I so don´t want to touch this but here goes,

First, @BullettheBlueSkky

Quote :

The people that do this kind of stuff are Islamic fanatics. They WANT to die. According to their religion, the only way for them to go to heaven is to die in jihad- holy war. So really these terrorists aren't necessarily terrorist at all. They're just performing their religion, which is Islam, to go to their heaven.

You are so incredibly wrong in so many ways this hurts,
take some time and read the Qur'an, it is a religeon of peace, it is the twisted fanatic that turns the Chapters and Verse to suit their sick needs, drawing the hard of thinking to their cause because of some precieved or past experiance.
The Qurán calls for Jihad, only in protection of the Islamic Religeon, there are no Chapters or Verses saying that you should go blow yourself to kingdom come for your 33, 40, or 70 virgins ( ever wonder why the number always changes ? ), there are no Chapter or Verses saying you need to kill as many Innocent Gentile in order to be in good favor with the Dude Upstairs.

I know what you are thinking,
`` O.K. slob you might be right, but the are the only ones going around blowing the bejesus out of everybody and everything right now. ´´

and I would almost agree with you, but lets just take a few seconds and think about the not so distant past,
Timothy McVeigh, Irish Catholic
Terry Lynn Nichols , Catholic
Jeffery Dahmer, fundamentalist-creationist.

The FBI gave the standard profile of a serial killer, He is a person with few friends. He became much more religious just before he started murdering people. After reading all the available studies I could find and studying all the articles in the newspapers for over 30 years, I find what is most outstanding is Serial killers were sexually inhibited by their strong religious upbringing.
Nearly all serial killers are very devout men who were raised by members of Pentecostal sects, fundamentalist Catholics or were 'hard-shell' Baptists and Methodists."

Let´s go a little further back
Hitler, Christian
Mousollini, Roman Catholic
Stalin, Protestant

It is the sick, the twisted, the few who know what to say and to who, that cause the damage, that kill the innocent, for their own religeous or political gains.
Don´t fall into the trap, of believing the crap, that is spread by others, or you end up being no better than your enemy.

In the words of Mr. Gump,
`` That´s all´I´m going to say ´bout that ´´

Amen. Thank you very much for that post Slob.
I so dearly wish someone could tell such facts to the media and masses (or just to the media...they control the masses).

All percieved "religious sponsored" homicide and genocide spurs from one source: crazed radicals that use the spirituality of others to commit their sins.

Quote :

Amen. Thank you very much for that post Slob.
I so dearly wish someone could tell such facts to the media and masses (or just to the media...they control the masses).

That would be amazing, but as long as politics and business plays a role in News media that will, sadly, never happen.

And Slob thanks for that, it's sad when people believe somthing so wrong, especialy when it's given them by the mainstream media and politicians who have degrees from some of the most prestegious uni's in America.

Ok to be clear slob I got all that from these people that USED to be Muslims. I didn't get that from the media or masses or anybody. It was these 2 (or was it 3) brothers who turned from Islam to christian, and then wrote about their religion. Islam. And so in this book they said that the major prophet of Islam, muhamad, was told by Allah to "go and slaugter the non-believers" ( they actually used a different word than non- believers but I'll have to look back to the book to see). So that's what these guys said about islam. They said ( and I quote) "Islam is not a peace keeping religion". So yes, I agree, people twist religion around to fit their needs, but Muslims practicly follow Muhammad, who was told by Allah, to either kill all who don't believe in islam or convert them. Now I may he wrong in a few things, but I'm pretty sure Islamic fanatics/terrorists are acting out their religion.
And just to add, a few years before 9/11 osama bin Ladin issued an act of jihad against the u.s. because he/ they saw us as a Christian nation.

BullettheBlueSkky wrote:

Ok to be clear slob I got all that from these people that USED to be Muslims. I didn't get that from the media or masses or anybody. It was these 2 (or was it 3) brothers who turned from Islam to christian, and then wrote about their religion. Islam. And so in this book they said that the major prophet of Islam, muhamad, was told by Allah to "go and slaugter the non-believers" ( they actually used a different word than non- believers but I'll have to look back to the book to see). So that's what these guys said about islam. They said ( and I quote) "Islam is not a peace keeping religion". So yes, I agree, people twist religion around to fit their needs, but Muslims practicly follow Muhammad, who was told by Allah, to either kill all who don't believe in islam or convert them. Now I may he wrong in a few things, but I'm pretty sure Islamic fanatics/terrorists are acting out their religion.
And just to add, a few years before 9/11 osama bin Ladin issued an act of jihad against the u.s. because he/ they saw us as a Christian nation.

.....That statement is so unbelievably wrong and stupid. I do believe the statement you are referring to is "Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created- Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood: Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful,- He Who taught (the use of) the pen,- Taught man that which he knew not." There is nothing about killing non believers, those supposed "converts"? Probably nothing more than a bunch of despicable fear mongers who want to make a quick buck by playing with the ignorance of the masses, including you.

You need to realize Islam is an of-shoot of Christianity, which in turn was an of-shoot of Judaism (sic) there is nothing "evil" about it. You will find crazies in every religion who seek to justify their disgusting acts as Gods work. Instead of being ignorant pick up a history book or WOW look through the Quran...what a concept.

BullettheBlueSkky wrote:

Ok to be clear slob I got all that from these people that USED to be Muslims. I didn't get that from the media or masses or anybody. It was these 2 (or was it 3) brothers who turned from Islam to christian, and then wrote about their religion. Islam. And so in this book they said that the major prophet of Islam, muhamad, was told by Allah to "go and slaugter the non-believers" ( they actually used a different word than non- believers but I'll have to look back to the book to see). So that's what these guys said about islam. They said ( and I quote) "Islam is not a peace keeping religion". So yes, I agree, people twist religion around to fit their needs, but Muslims practicly follow Muhammad, who was told by Allah, to either kill all who don't believe in islam or convert them. Now I may he wrong in a few things, but I'm pretty sure Islamic fanatics/terrorists are acting out their religion.
And just to add, a few years before 9/11 osama bin Ladin issued an act of jihad against the u.s. because he/ they saw us as a Christian nation.

Sources aside, the very thought that you believed this to be fact is a blatant representation of "blind belief". This blindness to truth is what drives many extremist minds to believe that the Quran and Muhammad are urging violence in His name. Now, political insignificants aside, ALL beliefs and religious doctrine can be twisted and malshaped to encourage violence. All it takes is one man's (or woman's) improper translation of scripture to turn a world on it's head and bring the fires of Helll unto the innocence of the world.

Percieved truths are often more dangerous than straight lies.

From an agnostic's mouth.

Ok, mabye i was wrong. I'll admit that. I probably am wrong. But get one thing straight: I DID NOT get that from any kind of media. In fact, the only thing I've heard the media say about Islam is that it is a peace-keeping religion, similar to what you said, oddly enough. Well, I guess it'd be what y'all said really. But anyways, for the sake of agreeing to disagree, I didn't get any of what I said from "the media". And also besides the point, next time at least respect somebody else's views or opinions. You can correct me, but don't be a ass about it.

BullettheBlueSkky wrote:

You can correct me, but don't be a ass about it.

I didn't see them being asses about it. It seemed to me like a good ol' debate, rather than an ass beating.

Rule of debate No. 1: Don't provide an argument if you don't have the facts.
(Which is why I'm not debating this situation)

Well I never said it was a ass beating. But you know what, I don't really care. So I'm done here

Alrighty then. No hard feelings. The general purpose of debate isto discover common truths, not denounce percieved truths as lies...which I believe we have accomplished.

There are many sides to the conflict that engulfs us. Im sure there will be many more to come. All the while, let us not forget the true objective of warfare among mankind: peace, enlightenment of the oppressed, and preservance of innocence.

In the words of my hero,

`` There are three things that should never be discussed in the open, Politics, Religeon and the Great Pumpkin. ´´
`` Linus ´´

No we have a good example as to why,

@BullettheBlueSkky

It is real easy to fall into others ways of thinking, and there lies the danger, it is so much easier to listen to others and automaticaly agree to what they are saying, based either on up bringing, life experiances or emotions.

Try going against the flow, don´t be one of the pack, challenge the thoughts or convictions of others, question your teachers ( regardless of who they may be ), it is in the question that lays great knowing.

Here is an example for you, right now in the U.S. there is a large movement to abolish the Death Penalty, a large portion for of their argument is based on Religeon, and almost wholey on `` You shall not Murder ´´ the 6th Commandment for Jewish ( Talmudic ),Anglican, Reformed, and other Christian, Orthodox or 5th for Catholic, Lutheran beliefs.

So if we are to just base our decisions just on what they are saying, then they are correct, but if you were to take just a bit of time, and challenge their arguments, you would find that this is a case of using only a small bit of information to support their group or movement to achieve their goals. kind of like what the Fundimentalists are doing through out the world.

never was meant to be mean or vindictive, I actualy kind of enjoyed the discussion.

Quite enjoyable. To any of you interested, there are two extremely enlightening books that I recommend. The first is ''A People's History of the World''. The book presents much of history, not in the form found in your school textbooks, but rather in it's whole truth. I learned concepts while reading this that I will never learn in conventional schooling. It encourages the reader to look deeper into history and question the validity of everything. Teaches much about human behavior and the false liberties prevailant throughout democratic nations. Another great read is ''Lies My Teacher Told Me''. Its about falseties in american history and 'little known' stories about how the US was formed. Just something to think about. Carry on, gents.

`` Lies My Teacher Told ME´´, LOL

Depending on where you live, there could be multiple sequels.
My personal favorite lie, `` The Civil War was about freeing the Slaves ´´, and it is still being taught today, go figure.....

And that's what makes everybody think that, just because you have a Confederate Flag, you are a racist that hates blacks. People don't realize a lot of Southerners fought for States' Rights and for their homes and land. My great great great great grandfather fought for the South, and his wife worked for the Underground Railroad. He was merely fighting for his home and for his family.

Sorry, just had to get that out there.

To go a bit further with slobs example

Quote :

Here is an example for you, right now in the U.S. there is a large movement to abolish the Death Penalty, a large portion for of their argument is based on Religeon, and almost wholey on `` You shall not Murder ´´ the 6th Commandment for Jewish ( Talmudic ),Anglican, Reformed, and other Christian, Orthodox or 5th for Catholic, Lutheran beliefs.

Instead of basing my choice on faith alone I could make a much stronger argument by also saying in ALL cases the cost of killing someone is MUCH more then sentencing them to life without parole. Persons on death row also have some of the most comfortable existences in prison and in some states convicts are actually requesting the death penalty for the comfort, the fact that these states rarely actually kill anyone doesn’t help.

By backing the argument with facts (That can be proven from a reputable source) someone would have a much harder time to argue their point, and in the long run your movement gains greater respect.

@Zane,

But then I would of course have to counter your point of argument that,
Your point is only partialy correct, and this missinformation is constantly being used to validate the opponents stance.

The cost of the execution is relativly small, on average it costs 47,000 dollars to put a convict to death, the other 2,3 Million dollars ( again average ), are all costs resulting in the long drawn out Appeals procedure, where the convict spends an average of 13 years trying to get their punnishment overturned. Legal Defense, costs of the Court, Transport, Research, extra security, food, water, electricity, clothing, Press..... all additional costs that get added to the burden of the tax payer, never mind the added risk to the local communities that they may escape ( it has happened ).

If LWOP actualy meant that a convicted murderer would never get out of Prison, then I would be at the front of the pack beating the drum to get the DP abolished, but due to the constant change in political and private opinions, laws are changed, ammended or new laws introduced that actualy allow for the release of the above said, imposing a greater threat to the law abiding citizens of the community.

( All information can be checked at, Department of Justice, Amnesty International or Death Penalty Information Center )

( P.S. This is going to get interesting, I see it already )

Look at China. They kill, what? 5,000 people a year? They don't screw around if you break the law. If I remember correctly, they also have a fairly low crime rate, given the size of their population.

The pledge of Alliegiance ends " With liberty and justice for all" The death penalty is not justice three factors, unrelated to the crime itself, greatly influence who gets executed and who does not: poverty, race and geography.

The American Bar Association and many scholars have found that what most often determines whether or not a death sentence is handed down is not the facts of the crime, but the quality of the legal representation. The overwhelming majority of death row inmates receive substandard legal representation at trial. Almost all capital-crime defendants are indigent when arrested, and are generally represented by court-appointed lawyers, who are inexperienced and underpaid. The National Law Journal, reviewing capital cases in six Southern states, reported that defense lawyers are often "ill-trained, unprepared... [and] grossly underpaid."
Defending a capital case is time-consuming, taking about 700-1000 hours. In some jurisdictions the hourly rates for appointed attorneys in capital cases are less than the minimum wage, and usually much less than the lawyer's hourly expenses. Moreover, courts often authorize inadequate funds for investigation and experts—or refuse to do so altogether. This is in the face of the almost limitless such funding for the prosecution. Wealthy people who can hire their own counsel are generally spared the death penalty, no matter how heinous their crimes. Poor people do not have the same opportunity to buy their lives.

Death row in the U.S. has always held a disproportionately large population of people of color relative to the general population. Whereas African Americans constitute 12% of the U.S. population, they are 35% of those on death row; 9% are Native American, Latino or Asian. The most important factor in levying the death penalty, however, is the race of the victim. (Those who kill a white person are more likely to receive the death penalty than those who kill a black person.)
A 1998 report by the Death Penalty Information Center summarizes the findings of several scholars which illustrate this point. In 96% of the studies examining the relationship between race and the death penalty there was a pattern of race-of-victim or race-of-defendant discrimination, or both.
The report also reveals a consistent trend indicating race-of-victim discrimination. For example, in Florida, in comparable cases, "a defendant's odds of receiving a death sentence are 4.8 times higher if the victim was white than if the victim was black. In Illinois the multiplier is 4, in Oklahoma it is 4.3, in North Carolina, 4.4, and in Mississippi, it is 5.5."
The state of Kentucky presents a particularly outrageous example of race-of-victim discrimination: despite the fact that 1,000 African Americans have been murdered there since the 1975 reinstitution of the death penalty in that state, as of spring 1999, all of the state's 39 death row inmates were sentenced for murdering a white victim; none were there for murdering an African American.
Several studies show the effects of outright racial discrimination. One recent example, a 1998 University of Iowa study of sentencing in Philadelphia, showed that the odds of receiving a death sentence are nearly 3.9 times greater if the defendant is African American.
These patterns of racial disparities are partly explained by the fact that the nation's prosecutors, who make the threshold decision about whether or not to seek the death penalty are almost exclusively white men. Of the district attorneys in U.S. counties using capital punishment, 98% are white, and only 1% are African American. New York State has only one African American district attorney.

Whether someone convicted of a capital crime receives a death sentence depends greatly on the state or county in which the trial and conviction takes place. In some states, a death sentence is rare. Connecticut had five people on death row in 1999; Kansas, only two. Southern states, particularly Texas (443 death row inmates in 1999), hand down significantly more death sentences than those in the rest of the country. California, the state with the largest penal system, had 513 inmates on death row in the spring of 1999. Such state-to-state disparities exist because death penalty statutes are a patchwork of disparate standards, rules and practices and the consequence is the difference between life and death. Furthermore, some prosecutors are more zealous in seeking the death penalty than others—particularly if they are running for re-election.
In some states, inmates can be executed for crimes they committed at the age of 16; in others, only those who committed murder at age 18 or older are eligible for the death penalty. Some states, but not all, ban the execution of people with mental retardation. Some states include felony murder (unpremeditated murder committed in the course of another crime such as robbery or burglary) as a capital crime; others do not. In the 29 states that have a sentence of life without parole, 23 have statutes that bar judges from letting jurors know they have that sentencing option. Since studies consistently show that when given a choice between a death sentence and a sentence of life without parole, most people will choose the latter, failure to inform a jury of this alternative is tantamount to sending more people to the execution chamber.
Social science research has discredited the claim that execution deters murder. The majority of murders are committed in the heat of passion, and/or under the influence of alcohol or drugs, when there is little thought given to the possible consequences of the act. "Hit men" and other murderers who plan their crimes beforehand, intend and expect to avoid punishment altogether by not getting caught.
Law enforcement officials know that the death penalty is not a deterrent. Imposing the death penalty more often was thought to be cost-effective by only 29% of 386 randomly selected U.S. police chiefs polled by Peter D. Hart Research Associates in 1995. States that have death penalty laws do not have lower crime rates or murder rates than states without such laws. And states that have abolished capital punishment, or reinstituted it, show no significant changes in either crime or murder rates.

However satisfying vengeance may seem, a civilized society cannot accept an eye-for-an-eye, tooth-for-a-tooth delivery of justice. Although some families and loved ones of murder victims approve the death penalty, many others are against it. Further, some family members of homicide victims comment that the death penalty process prolongs their pain, and only senses to make their healing more elusive.
Financial and emotional support is what they need most, not more violence. In the words of the father of one murder victim, "Violence is not an acceptable method of solving the problems that arise in our daily lives.... The use of the death penalty only lowers the standards of government to the mentality of the murderer himself." We do not punish rape with rape, or burn down the house of an arsonist. We should not, therefore, punish the murderer with death.
The irreversibility of the death penalty is especially significant in light of the percentage of innocent people on death row. A study published in 1982 in the Stanford Law Review documents 350 capital convictions in which it was later proven that the convict had not committed the crime. Of those, 23 convicts were executed; others spent decades of their lives in prison. In a 1996 update of this study it was revealed that in the past few years alone, four individuals were executed although there was strong evidence that they were not guilty of the crime for which they were condemned.
Since 1976, 77 persons have been released from death row because they were not guilty of the crime for which they had been condemned to death (33 of these releases have occurred since 1990). These lucky interventions occurred almost always as the result of the efforts of students, journalists or pro bono lawyers, often only hours before a scheduled execution, and usually after the condemned had been on death row for over ten years.
Although it is commonly thought that the death penalty is reserved for those who commit the most heinous crimes, in reality only a small percentage of death-sentenced inmates were convicted of unusually vicious crimes. The vast majority of individuals facing execution were convicted of crimes that are indistinguishable from crimes committed by others who are serving prison sentences, crimes such as murder committed in the course of an armed robbery.

Our nation exacts capital punishment in five ways: by hanging, electrocution, gas chamber, firing squad (still authorized in Idaho and Utah), and the most common method, lethal injection. The United States is the only Western industrialized nation that practices the death penalty, and is by far the nation with the largest death row roster in the world. In comparison, all of Western Europe has abolished the death penalty, either by decree of law, or by practice. Fifty-seven nations and territories outlaw the death penalty for any crime, fifteen more allow it only for exceptional crimes such as military law or wartime crimes. Another twenty-six countries and territories are abolitionist de facto, meaning they have not executed anyone during the past ten years or more, or that they have made an international commitment not to carry out executions. In numbers of people executed annually, the United States far exceeds the other 94 documented countries and territories that continue to deliver the death penalty.
Various polls of public attitudes about crime and punishment found that a majority of people in the United States support alternatives to capital punishment. According to the Death Penalty Information Center, when presented with possible sentencing alternatives, 50% of those surveyed chose life imprisonment without parole plus restitution to the victim's family as an alternative to the death penalty.
In 45 states, laws allow life sentences for murder that severely limit or eliminate the possibility of parole. Thirteen states impose sentences without the possibility of parole for 25-40 years, and all but three of the states that use capital punishment also have the option of life imprisonment with no possibility of parole. Although it is often assumed that capital punishment is less costly than life imprisonment, the opposite is true: in terms of dollars, in terms of crime control, and in terms of morality.


Ah and happy 99th birthday slob ^_^

And if anyone hears somthing that sounds slightly outrages check out this site http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/

@Zane,
Sorry been away for a few days,

Let´s continue

In debate to some of the points of your arguement,

Quote :

The pledge of Alliegiance ends " With liberty and justice for all" The death penalty is not justice three factors, unrelated to the crime itself, greatly influence who gets executed and who does not: poverty, race and geography.

The Death Penalty is not a punnishment of Revenge, the DP is a punnishment of Atonement and Avengement thus serving the concept of Justice, by placing the value of human life above all other values, allowing a Murderer to continue his/her life in Prison would be akin to removing the value that we place on humal life. Our constitution and Bill of Rights guarentee every citizin inside the Boarders of the United States the `` Right ´´, not privilge, of Life, Liberty and the Persuit of Happiness, anybody that takes that ```Right ´´ away from an innocent makes him or herselve accountible to the Legal System laid down by our Government in the name of and with the approval of the People.

Quote :

quality of the legal representation

Is a problem of the Legal System, not of the Punnishment.
This is also a reason why that DP cases are 2 Phase legal Processes, Crime and Punnishment, 2 seperate legal defenses, 2 different juries, 2 different judges, and during Punnishment, the Judge must be a State Supreme Judge.

The Issues of race in DP cases are insignificant, being that most Murders and in almost all cases of Serial murder, Murderers kill inside of their nationality or community, i.e. if a community is Gang influenced with many factions, when there is Gang violence with drive bye´s, accidental meeting of rival members, does this become an issue of Race, or Gang Violence or both ?

More minorities may be in Prison, more may be awaiting trial, but more Caucasians are sitting on Death Row than the rest of all Minorities combined, and in the issue of executions that have been carried out under the current legal system, 78% of all executed Prisoner have been of European ( Caucasion ) decent.

Racial or Ethnical influence based on Geographic location or Local Population influences, goes along the same lines of saying that the DP will be handed down more or less during Election years for different Government Official, I am sure that it does happen, but tell me, How do you remove all `` Emotion ´´ from a DP case, where there is so much at stake ?
If and when discrimination occurs it should be corrected. Not, however, by letting the guilty blacks escape the death penalty because guilty whites do, but by making sure that the guilty white offenders suffer it as the guilty blacks do. Discrimination must be abolished by abolishing discrimination - not by abolishing penalties. However, even if...this cannot be done, I do not see any good reason to let any guilty murderer escape his penalty. It does happen in the administration of criminal justice that one person gets away with murder and another is executed. Yet the fact that one gets away with it is no reason to let another one escape.

Quote :

Since 1976, 77 persons have been released from death row because they were not guilty of the crime for which they had been condemned to death (33 of these releases have occurred since 1990). These lucky interventions occurred almost always as the result of the efforts of students, journalists or pro bono lawyers, often only hours before a scheduled execution, and usually after the condemned had been on death row for over ten years.

Sorry, and please don´t take this the wrong way, but this statement is a complete crock of Sh** !
Of the individuals that have been released, through Lawyers working Pro Bono, student information/public action groups, the wrongly convicted were released on the proper processing and use of modern day technology, please keep in mind the use of Genetic Fingerprinting, DNA analasis was not available when most were sentenced, some cases are also based on other Cons taking the fall to protect another or accomplice in crime.

Quote :

The United States is the only Western industrialized nation that practices the death penalty, and is by far the nation with the largest death row roster in the world.

Please define `` industrialized ´´ ? are you to say that Mexico, most of Middle America´s and all of South America are Third World countries ? Where almost all have and use the DP.

Quote :

all of Western Europe has abolished the death penalty, either by decree of law, or by practice.

First off `` They had to !! ´´, it is one of the basic stipulations of the EU Convention, to be a member Country, you can not have the DP as a form of Punnishment. To which most of the European Nation are currently re-thinking the application of this rule. Since the bannishment of the DP, the western European lands have seen an explosion in violent crime and murder, to give an example, Germany where I currently live, saw 835 murders last year, only 3 states in America reported more, California, Texas and New York, and Germany is number 8 on the List, there are European lands where their Murder Rate, actualy exceeds every State of the United States.

Quote :

is by far the nation with the largest death row roster in the world.

Only because the United States realizes and accepts the irreversible affects of the execution, The United States affords the Convicted every oppertunity to have their innocence proven. Should we adapt some of the Easter ways of carring out executions, Executed directly after the handing down of the Punnishment, Within 2 weeks or 30 days ?

Quote :

life imprisonment without parole plus restitution to the victim's family as an alternative to the death penalty

If LWOP meant exactly that, I may support this idea, only as long as there is absolutly no chance that a convicted killer would ever escape from prison.
LWOP is a flexible punnishment, depending on Public opinion, the LWOP has been reduced to Time Served, convicted killers have been released only to kill anew, others while incarcerated have escaped and within hours taken more innocent lives, others have killed fellow inmates who were serving sentences of minimal time to be served.

Restitution ??
What is a Life worth ??
Are you ready to place a monetary value on a Life ?? In doing so you are saying that a Life can be bought, kind of sound like `` Blood Money ´´, also an aspect of other third world cultures and cultures that started this whole debate.
Who would pay this `` Restitution ´´, the Killer ? with what ? his/her Prison Paycheck.

Quote :

Although it is often assumed that capital punishment is less costly than life imprisonment, the opposite is true: in terms of dollars, in terms of crime control, and in terms of morality.

"The idea that "violence doesn't solve anything" is a historically untrue and immoral doctrine. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. People that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms."

"Does fining a criminal show want of respect for property, or imprisoning him, for personal freedom? Just as unreasonable it is to think that to take the life of a man who has taken that of another is to show want of regard for human life. We show, on the contrary...our regard for it, by the adoption of a rule that he who violates that right in another forfeits it for himself and that while no other crime that he can commit deprives him of his right to live, this shall."

When I think of all the sweet, innocent people who suffer extreme pain and who die every day in this country, then the outpouring of sympathy for cold-blooded killers enrages me. Where is your (expletive deleted) sympathy for the good, the kind and the innocent? This fixation on murderers is a sickness, a putrefaction of the soul. It's the equivalent of someone spending all day mooning and cooing over a handful of human feces. Sick and abnormal.

On a final note, how can murder be taken seriously if the penalty isn't equally as serious? A crime, after all, is only as severe as the punishment that follows it. As Edward Koch once said:


"It is by exacting the highest penalty for the taking of human life that we affirm the highest value of human life."

Award-winning Chicago journalist Mike Royko strongly defended this position by stating:

"When I think of the thousands of inhabitants of Death Rows in the hundreds of prisons in this country...My reaction is: What's taking us so long? Let's get that electrical current flowing. Drop those pellets [of poison gas] now! Whenever I argue this with friends who have opposite views, they say that I don't have enough regard for the most marvelous of miracles - human life. Just the opposite: It's because I have so much regard for human life that I favor capital punishment. Murder is the most terrible crime there is. Anything less than the death penalty is an insult to the victim and society. It says..that we don't value the victim's life enough to punish the killer fully."


Thanks for the B-day wishes, still have a bit to go...............

I hope you have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

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The Death Penalty is not a punnishment of Revenge, the DP is a punnishment of Atonement and Avengement thus serving the concept of Justice, by placing the value of human life above all other values, allowing a Murderer to continue his/her life in Prison would be akin to removing the value that we place on humal life. Our constitution and Bill of Rights guarentee every citizin inside the Boarders of the United States the `` Right ´´, not privilge, of Life, Liberty and the Persuit of Happiness, anybody that takes that ```Right ´´ away from an innocent makes him or herselve accountible to the Legal System laid down by our Government in the name of and with the approval of the People.

Matter of opinion so no point in me debating it.

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The Issues of race in DP cases are insignificant, being that most Murders and in almost all cases of Serial murder, Murderers kill inside of their nationality or community, i.e. if a community is Gang influenced with many factions, when there is Gang violence with drive bye´s, accidental meeting of rival members, does this become an issue of Race, or Gang Violence or both ?

"In 82% of the studies [reviewed], race of the victim was found to influence the likelihood of being charged with capital murder or receiving the death penalty, i.e., those who murdered whites were found more likely to be sentenced to death than those who murdered blacks."
- United States General Accounting Office, Death Penalty Sentencing, February 1990

Since 1976 15 whites were executed for murdering a black person, in that same period 245 blacks were killed.

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78% of all executed Prisoner have been of European ( Caucasion ) decent.

57% were of caucasion the rest were minorities. ( since 1976 )

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Sorry, and please don´t take this the wrong way, but this statement is a complete crock of Sh** !
Of the individuals that have been released, through Lawyers working Pro Bono, student information/public action groups, the wrongly convicted were released on the proper processing and use of modern day technology, please keep in mind the use of Genetic Fingerprinting, DNA analasis was not available when most were sentenced, some cases are also based on other Cons taking the fall to protect another or accomplice in crime.

You are right my info was wrong, instead lets break it down from 1973 (persons realeased)

Black
71
White
54
Latino
12
Other
2
Now lets look at these shall we? Guess what? Of the 139 released ONLY 17 were released due to modern science, the rest were released due to witness error, false witness often by snitch testimony-given in exchange for a reduction in sentence, goverment misconduct, false confession, junk science, hearsay, questionable circumstantial evidence, etc

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Please define `` industrialized ´´ ? are you to say that Mexico, most of Middle America´s and all of South America are Third World countries ? Where almost all have and use the DP.

I am defining industrialized as a nation were it is not easy as "Watch your language" to bribe the judge, or pressure them into convicting someone thats innocent, or using it to get rid of dissodents. Using South America as a example look whats going on there right now, everyday more officials are fired for accepting bribes from the drug cartels.

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Since the bannishment of the DP, the western European lands have seen an explosion in violent crime and murder, to give an example, Germany where I currently live, saw 835 murders last year, only 3 states in America reported more, California, Texas and New York, and Germany is number 8 on the List, there are European lands where their Murder Rate, actualy exceeds every State of the United States

As you said earlier, no offense, but thats a load of "Watch your language". Among Germany's 82 million citizens there have been 794 murders in 2005. That's two more murders than in 2004. These numbers are from the Bundeskriminalamt aka "the German FBI" Between 1993 and 2003, the number of murders fell by 40.8 percent and domestic burglaries fell by 45.7 percent. All in all, crime in general dropped by 2.6 percent during the 10-year period and today, Germany is considered one of the industrialized world's safer countries. The only place were I can see you get that info from is form public polls. In a survey conducted in 2004 by the Criminological Research Institute of Lower Saxony (KFN), a representative sample of 2,000 people were asked about their perceptions of crime trends in the previous 10 years. In almost all categories of crime, respondents grossly overestimated crime rates in Germany.

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The United States affords the Convicted every oppertunity to have their innocence proven.

On paper perhaps, on almost every modern case in which DNA or other evidence was used to free a criminal the DA office did everything possible to block the evidence, becouse guess what? The US's justice system is flawed, a prosocuter depends on his win loss ratio to succeed so they will do whatevers necasary to get win, don't believe me? A recent study done by NPR proves this and if neccsasary I will go look it up.


The res is pretty much just your opinion vs mine and I wont debate that becouse thats just gonna lead to trouble, anyway looking forward to the rebuttal :p


*** In regard to the investagation I was talking about, the original radio show is no longer available, however the book "Ordinary Injustice: How America Holds Court" is available if you want to read it. A short paragraph about what its about:

"From an award-winning lawyer-reporter, a radically new explanation for America’s failing justice system. The stories of grave injustice are all too familiar: the lawyer who sleeps through a trial, the false confessions, the convictions of the innocent. Less visible is the chronic injustice meted out daily by a profoundly defective system. In a sweeping investigation that moves from small-town Georgia to upstate New York, from Chicago to Mississippi, Amy Bach reveals a judicial process so deeply compromised that it constitutes a menace to the people it is designed to serve. Here is the public defender who pleads most of his clients guilty; the judge who sets outrageous bail for negligible crimes; the prosecutor who brings almost no cases to trial; the court that works together to achieve a wrong verdict. Going beyond the usual explanations of bad apples and meager funding, Bach identifies an assembly-line approach that rewards shoddiness and sacrifices defendants to keep the court calendar moving, and she exposes the collusion between judge, prosecutor, and defense that puts the interests of the system above the obligation to the people."

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Matter of opinion so no point in me debating it.

Almost a matter of opinions, but the Crime and Punnishment is a system based on Checks and Balances, and in each case of the Punnishment, the result is meant to be more extreme than the crime in order to be a deterrent, the effectivness of the deterrent can be argued till we are both blue in the Face.

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"In 82% of the studies [reviewed], race of the victim was found to influence the likelihood of being charged with capital murder or receiving the death penalty, i.e., those who murdered whites were found more likely to be sentenced to death than those who murdered blacks."
- United States General Accounting Office, Death Penalty Sentencing, February 1990





Since 1976 15 whites were executed for murdering a black person, in that same period 245 blacks were killed.

On the point of Race being a factor in the DP or handing down of DP punnishment, the point is mote to argue, there are too many different factors to be taken into account, Revenge, Hate, Gang Violence, Geographic Location, Race Crimes, Factional or Fanatical actions or retaliation and on and on, maybe if we could make racial predudice opinions and thoughts a crime then we could remove this arguement all together.

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57% were of caucasion the rest were minorities. ( since 1976 )

I went all the way back before the Supreme court blocking of the DP, but that also brings up another point, if you look at the statistcs, during the Supreme Court blocking of the DP, Murder Rates actualy climbed and during their highest, only the years of 1990/1991 during the explosion of drug and gang violence, the Murder Rate was higher than it is today.

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Now lets look at these shall we? Guess what? Of the 139 released ONLY 17 were released due to modern science,

Depending on the source ( Mine is the Department of Corrections ) the actual number is 14, not 17.

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I am defining industrialized as a nation were it is not easy as "Watch your language" to bribe the judge, or pressure them into convicting someone thats innocent, or using it to get rid of dissodents. Using South America as a example look whats going on there right now, everyday more officials are fired for accepting bribes from the drug cartels.

So we drop Columbia, since they are the only `` Real ´´ large cartel country, you still cannot eliminate the rest of everything south of the Boarders of the U.S.

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As you said earlier, no offense, but thats a load of "Watch your language". Among Germany's 82 million citizens there have been 794 murders in 2005.

Sorry, I said ``last year ´´, not in 2005, also reported from the BKA, believe me I know who they are, not much fun when the MIB shows up at your door at 3 in the morning, Ooopppsss Sorry wrong Door, here Fill out this form and you get a new door later in the day.

And in comparison to the current population of 86 Mil for Germany to the 308 Mil to Americas, Germany´s current murder Rate exceedes that of the U.S., tho some states may be more dangerous than others, when you average out the 50 states, you are alot safer than you are here ( don´t forget a large portion of the States are larger than most european countries.

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On paper perhaps, on almost every modern case in which DNA or other evidence was used to free a criminal the DA office did everything possible to block the evidence, becouse guess what? The US's justice system is flawed, a prosocuter depends on his win loss ratio to succeed so they will do whatevers necasary to get win

This is a point that we both agree on, The system is Flawed, it is no longer a system of Justice but one of `` Who can Prove what, and collect the bigger paycheck ´´, but it is the system that we have, out-dated, in need of some major reworking and updating, but until this is done, I will continue to support it.

Let me put this hypothetical question to you,

Someone you know is being attacked, the only way you can save the person you know or love is to kill the attacker, What do you do ?

Do you expect me to believe that persons like
Gary Leon Ridgway
David Burke
John Wayne Gacy, Jr.
Leonard Lake
Charles Ng
Wayne Williams
Richard Speck
Dennis Rader
Just to name a few, after all the terrible things that the did, they deserve to live ??

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On the point of Race being a factor in the DP or handing down of DP punnishment, the point is mote to argue, there are too many different factors to be taken into account, Revenge, Hate, Gang Violence, Geographic Location, Race Crimes, Factional or Fanatical actions or retaliation and on and on, maybe if we could make racial predudice opinions and thoughts a crime then we could remove this arguement all together.

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Depending on the source ( Mine is the Department of Corrections ) the actual number is 14, not 17.

Which is even better statistict for me as it better proves my point, that those released are rarely released due to new science but instead due to faulty sentancing.

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So we drop Columbia, since they are the only `` Real ´´ large cartel country, you still cannot eliminate the rest of everything south of the Boarders of the U.S

Mexico much?

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And in comparison to the current population of 86 Mil for Germany to the 308 Mil to Americas, Germany´s current murder Rate exceedes that of the U.S., tho some states may be more dangerous than others, when you average out the 50 states, you are alot safer than you are here ( don´t forget a large portion of the States are larger than most european countries.

I can't find your source, however looking at the website of the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention the murder rates of Germany and the United Sates are as follows ( listed respectivly)
0.0116461 per 1,000 people
0.042802 per 1,000 people

And given the size of Germanys population one murder would weigh more then one murder in the US

I respectivly disagree, since most of the factors you listed represent somthing related to gang violance and, as much as I hate to say it, deaths related to gang violance are rarly if ever infestigated and solved.

From what I see both of us can find data to match our claims, no matter what im sure well be able to find data to support ourselves so lets agree to disagree eh.
As for if someone I know is being attacked yes I would defend myself and those I love, self defense is different then killing some smuck chained to a chair.
Maybe this sounds elitist by I wont bring myself down to thier level by killing a killer, same as we don't burn a arsonists house, or rape a rapist or torture some sick bastard.
Until we find a fool proof way to make sure someone is guilty I cannot support the execution of someone that may be inocent, and neither can I bring myself to drop down to thier level.

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I can't find your source, however looking at the website of the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention the murder rates of Germany and the United Sates are as follows ( listed respectivly)
0.0116461 per 1,000 people
0.042802 per 1,000 people

Now do the adjustment for the differences in population, Personaly I always thought it was funny how Statistics are brought to light but never the comparison adjustments.

Just to use some of the Numbers that we have been tossing back and forth,
German Murders for 2005, 794 Victims, 2008 835 victims, and with a few days left to go in this year Interpol and the BKA are reporting 914, for this year.

I don´t see this debate or discussion as a disagreement, we both are just 2 sides of the same coin.
Regardless of the topic, all of us have differnet stand points that are based or learned from our Up-bringing, Moral Principles and Life Experiances, there is no right or wrong, just other points of view.

In one Point we are both in agreement, the DP is a dangerous tool, the end effects cannot be reversed, has it happened that innocents have been put to death, yes, will it happen again, I pray it dosn´t, but until the day comes that the Legal System, Rules of Law and Evidence are adapted to coincide with the times, there will always be that remaining danger, one that I am willing to accept for the protection and well being of the majority.

Zane, thanks for the discussion, I actualy enjoyed it.
It is your right to have a different point of view, and I respect it.

Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.