JG M4 S-System upgrade recomendations

I would like to know of some good upgrades (internal and external) for the JG M4 S-System that i could buy for under a maximum of 150$, if u have suggestions over that amount, ill here them too

thanks

I think you can get the majority of external kits for at or under $150. I put a Mad Bull Patriot Long Kit on mine and I love it. It set me back around $100 if I recall correctly. As for internal upgrades. Although people advise against it I have nearly always ran my Echo 1s on 9.6Vs. I think it is one of the cheapest things you can do internally that will offer a very noticeable change (ROF in this case). Also another cheap internal upgrade you can do is to get yourself a tight bore (precision barrel). This will mean you will need to buy precision BBs as well, but they do not typically cost much more than BBs that you can readily purchase from a nonairsoft store.
These two upgrade will be well under your budget and you will get a gun that has a much improved ROF (rate of fire) as well as very accurate. Also with the tight bore barrel less gas will escape from around the BB so this will increase your FPS slightly too. You can't go wrong. My friend uses systema barrels and they work great. I recommend you start your look with those. Batteries... go to batteryspace.com

As for the ridiculously priced upgrades... Here goes. I recently purchased a Systema Turbo Set. This has a brand new complete mech box that is specially geared for high ROF set ups. Since it is the set it also comes with the Systema Turbo Motor. I must say it blew me away! Powered by a 2400Mah 9.6V battery, I went through 100BBs in 4 seconds!!!! BUT it costs you $320 and a LOT of BBs. lol If you are uncertain on what this internal upgrade is just go to youtube.com and search for Systema Turbo!

I hope that I have been of some use to you. Do not hesitate to post or PM me with anymore questions. Welcome to the forums!

Hi Roamer,

Your reccomendations are all pretty solid, but I am no fan of Systema, and tests have proved that their inner barrels are at best middle of the line, if you really want an improvement in accuracy try a LayLax, or Prometheus inner barrel ( same company by the way, just another name for marketing purposes ), and Mad Bull Inner barrels are worlds better than Systema.

As far as their overpriced tuned gearboxes go, you can toss them in the Trash can, If you are lucky enough to get a GB that lives up to its description, buy yourself a replacement spring as soon as possible, their spring shelf life is about 4000 rounds, then they start to loose strenght rapidly. the piston should be replaced right away, or at least have a replacement on hand when you tear out the engagement tooth, the Systema Red POM piston is notorious for this weak spot.
Thier motors are the best that you can buy, I can give no argument there, just a shame that thier QC is not up to par. Have recieved more than a few motors with bad coiling.

Not trying to destroy the Rep. from Systema, but personaly I am not impressed with thier GB´s or Inner Barrels, have already put 2 of thier M150 Re-enforced Gearboxes in the graveyard, and neither of these where improved on or had any adjustments made, one was destroyed on the first day it saw action !!!

Again, like you stated, the easiest way to improve ROF, better motor, and increased Battery size. To really improve on your accuracy, first make sure that your system is solid, no air leaks, Piston Head, Cylinder, Cylinder Head, Nozzle, Hop-Up, Hop-up Rubber.

of course this is all IMHO

slob212 wrote:

Hi Roamer,

Your reccomendations are all pretty solid, but I am no fan of Systema, and tests have proved that their inner barrels are at best middle of the line, if you really want an improvement in accuracy try a LayLax, or Prometheus inner barrel ( same company by the way, just another name for marketing purposes ), and Mad Bull Inner barrels are worlds better than Systema.

As far as their overpriced tuned gearboxes go, you can toss them in the Trash can, If you are lucky enough to get a GB that lives up to its description, buy yourself a replacement spring as soon as possible, their spring shelf life is about 4000 rounds, then they start to loose strenght rapidly. the piston should be replaced right away, or at least have a replacement on hand when you tear out the engagement tooth, the Systema Red POM piston is notorious for this weak spot.
Thier motors are the best that you can buy, I can give no argument there, just a shame that thier QC is not up to par. Have recieved more than a few motors with bad coiling.

Not trying to destroy the Rep. from Systema, but personaly I am not impressed with thier GB´s or Inner Barrels, have already put 2 of thier M150 Re-enforced Gearboxes in the graveyard, and neither of these where improved on or had any adjustments made, one was destroyed on the first day it saw action !!!

Again, like you stated, the easiest way to improve ROF, better motor, and increased Battery size. To really improve on your accuracy, first make sure that your system is solid, no air leaks, Piston Head, Cylinder, Cylinder Head, Nozzle, Hop-Up, Hop-up Rubber.

of course this is all IMHO

Not to be too critical but have you actually taken apart a mechbox to a gun that costs well over $1000?
Systema also tries to simplify alot of their mechanics, for example the systema V.2 'revolution' mechbox. this gear box uses a stock installed MOSFET switch instead of the tradition mechanical switch unit in a TM.

You also claimed that you put two FTK's in the graveyard. I doubt you actually went and spent $350-$500 for 2 systema gb's (you might as well buy the gun at that point. It could also be likely you had no clue what you were doing, but you sound like a intelligent person. I'm not flaming you for ignorance, but this is the first time i have EVER heard anyone unsatisfied with systema products. However, you may be right about how their inner barrels and piston sets can probably be considered 'mid line' especially if their parts are mass produced in china. From what I understand their guns are made here, USA. Area 1000 is another aftermarket systema part that receives higher ratings than their actual systema bore up kit.

I don't know, I don't spent great amounts of time looking at guns that are way out of my budget. I have a friend who is a big advocate of systema if i can point out any common flaws with parts, it would be a exciting conversation...lol

For springs you should probably try a PPA 120 (Private Parts Airsoft) which is a exclusive company that specifies in certian parts, they may be good to look into. (mind the gay name, lolz)

Hi Lone Wolf,

You have the right to your doubts, and I take no offense to doubts or questions, it´s healthy to be a little wary and question new information that comes your ways, I trust nothing until I know the information is solid and I know that the parts work.

As far as experiance goes with GB`s, I do all the work on our teams weapons, trouble shoot problems, repair, replace, and help when anyone who decides to do the tuning. ( and not one of them has less than 1000$ invested ). I have spent more than a few day on the Playing field repairing and replaceing Systema Parts, from players in other teams who I just met, and not to blow my own horn, they all work correctly, and almost always Better after the repair or replacement, and I go so far as to guarentee my work. I do know what I am doing.

A few pics of the weapons that I have worked on,









Team Tuning Day !!




The 2 Systema GB´s Is no lie, what do I have to gain,( by the way, I pay quite a bit more for parts than what you pay , Europe isn´t Cheap !! http://www.kotte-zeller.de/websale7/Systema-Mecha-Gearbox-M170-%2b-Motor-f%fcr-M16A1%2fVN.htm?Ctx=%7bver%2f7%2fver%7d%7bst%2f3eb%2fst%7d%7bcmd%2f0%2fcmd%7d%7bm%2fwebsale%2fm%7d%7bs%2fkotte%2dzeller%2dshop%2fs%7d%7bl%2f01%2daa%2fl%7d%7bmi%2f004294%2fmi%7d%7bpi%2f40448%2fpi%7d%7bpo%2f1%2fpo%7d%7bdi%2fdesign%5fas%2eini%2fdi%7d%7bfc%2fx%2ffc%7d%7bp1%2f02c5d947466bc0555d4a33d71185ea83%2fp1%7d%7bmd5%2f55eb7163d97ef2ab8995efe2839858b8%2fmd5%7d after conversion that comes down to about 420$$, ),

guess I will have to start taking pictures as proof. I wrote the first one off as a QC fehler, and after getting the replacement ( Didn´t buy it, First one was under guarentee ), and it also broke at the same location as the first, I swore never to buy one again. To date I have seen more problems with Systema GB´s as with any other brand. A few examples, Complete loss of spring tensinle strenght after only a few magazines, M150 GB, direct out of the box with a measured FPS measurement of 320FPS, complete destruction of Piston ( Systema Red POM ) after only a few shots, Burned Mosfett´s with the first shot ( Semi ).

As far as Systema trying to simplify their products, how can you use their `` Revolution ´´ Gearbox as an example ? Why do you think the release date has been postponed, they didnt simplify anything they made it more complicated ! and at the same time made it more than likly that something will go wrong. Following problems with thier ``Revolution´´,

Power supply.
a. You need a dual stage power supply to last though the battery droops.

FETs - You NEED like the IRL1404Z or other really good super high gain, low RDSon, low VGSon FETs, They need a "tiny" bit of heat sinking too!!

Power spikes. When you use crazy things like the Systema Magnum / LiPO battery, you are going to induce inductive BIG spikes on all the wires.

Magnetic sensors instead of optics in this dirty environment.

Compltety protected and insulated Circuit boards, Oil, Grease, Metal shavings Plus electricity don´t mix well.

I am not slamming Systema, but for the amount of money that they want for thier parts, the QC needs to be greatly improved. INHO when you buy Systema, you are paying for the name more than for quality. Don´t take my word for it, buy the parts and experiance it yourself, could be you get lucky and never have a problem.

Here is a reading material for you,

http://www.airsoftmechanics.com/home/content/view/22/29/1/0/

Pay special attention to the Testing Platform used.

As soon as I Locate the Inner barrel review and measuments in english I will also post it for your Reading enjoyment.

Thanks, I appreciate the Response, and the links.

Im used to getting what i pay for in airsoft. For example, TM clones. the parts and specs secure the price, but sometimes QC screws up...

I have a Inner barrel measurements guide in english,
Inner Barrel Length's

Hello Again Lone Wolf,

Thanks for the link, I have that also and it is not the one I meant .
The one I have to re-find is an independent study and measurment of the Roundness of the inner diameter of Inner Barrels. It shows that not all Inner Barrels live up to what they are advertised to do, some of the results are pretty heart breaking.

As far as using clones, what is the problem, some of the so called clones that are comming onto the market are just as good, and sometimes even better than the Big Name produckts, without the cost. People seem to forget that Classic Army was once considered a Clone company.

I still consider CA a clone company because their design is as you know derived from TM. last year TM produced the TMP90, well now E1 has a P90 and i think CA may be comming out with one, im going to have to check spartan imports in this case...

as for the inner barrel reviews ill look for those and reply with links if i find the right ones...

Thanks for the further insight on some of these products.

No Biggie, we all help each other, and as you know, passing on information and expierences is a huge part of this hobby.

Lone Wolf, not sure if it's the one you are talking about, but yeah CA did just recently release a P90, you are correct. However, It's a Sportline CA, and I'm not too fond of it. But just so you know, I read you and Slobs' entire debate--and loved it! you both know your stuff.

But in any case, we should get back on topic.
I don't know a whole lot about the JG M4 S-System, but Toughby Sethy is thinking about getting the KWA M4 S-System.

Way to go Double Taps,
Thanks for bringing everything back into focus.

Debate ?? aaaacchhh that was a friendly conversation . A good debate would be on the benifits of polishing, or not polishing the inside of your Gearbox, or even better, When should I start to consider Short Stroking and Swiss Cheesing my piston ? or the Topper, Who makes the best Airsoft ?

Back to the topic on hand, tuning is largely based on the size of your budget, if you are on a tight budget ( like most of us ), we can't afford to make mistakes with substandard or really over priced products. I like Systema Gears but only to a certain level of tuning, after that I have to invest in the quality that I need, and there are gears on the market that are cheaper than Sytema, and are of a better quality when it comes to High End Tuning ( I consider High End to be anything above M140 ). Thier motors really can´t be beat, the only 2 weak spots with thier motors are the Pinion gear, and they are Electricity Pigs.

So tuning for under 150$, depending on how strong or how much you want to increase your FPS or ROF, I would first invest in a set of Flat Steel gears ( ELEMENT offers gears that are really worth the price, the arey rated to M150, but I wouldn´t go that far), if you are not familiar with Shimming, it might be a good Idea to purchase a set of Modify self shimming gears, but I am not sure if they will fit into a JG gearbox, best to ask your supplier. If you are not planning to go above a M120 spring, a Bore up set would be a waste of money, the increased FPS is minimal and not worth it. For a piston, I use nothing but DeepFire full metal teeth pistons, love these things. Of course you need the right piston Head, I also use nothing but DeepFire piston heads. Now to the inner barrel, a PDI, Prometheus or LayLax inner barrel will break your budget and unless you plan on going above a M150 not worth the investment, so I would reccomend the MadBull Percision Barrels, the are the best barrel for the dollar,IMHO, Now to the Hop-Up buckling, if you are going to do this right you can't forget the small stuff, If you can locate one the Kurage Spicy is probably the best Buckling on the market, extremly hard to locate, a good alternative is the MadBull Shark series, they come with both the soft, and hard Bucklings to include the right Nubbing. So now onto the motor, everything is based on your level of tuning, the Hummer 1300 is one of the best motors on the market for High Speed/low level High Power tunings, after that you are pretty much restricted to The Systema High speed or Magnum series motors.
A Mosfett installation is a must, saves your Switch Assembly and gives almost an instant Trigger response. Now to the battery, if you are using small type batteries Make the change to Large type, Change your connectors to Deans. Again this is all based on what level of tuning you want, you can gratly increase your ROF just by changing the size of your Battery. You will be surprised how much your ROF increases just from going from 8,4 to 9,6 even better to 10,8. Switching to large type batteries will also increase the lenght of time you can Play before you have to cange out ( Also depends on your style of Play ) .

What ever is left over you can now use for outside tuning , sorry but nothing in Airsoft is Cheap, if you want it to last a while.

WorldsEdge wrote:

I would like to know of some good upgrades (internal and external) for the JG M4 S-System that i could buy for under a maximum of 150$, if u have suggestions over that amount, ill here them too

thanks

1. invest on a good 9.6v battery that would fit your aeg.
2. metal spring guide or with bearing. V2
3. metal bushings
4. Air nozzle with 0-ring
5. pdi 170 or 190 on stock gears

still have extra cash..
6. metal cylinder head
7. tight barrel 6.03 id (prometheuse if you hav the cash)

still have change
8. stock TM piston with head. Just remove the stock spring and port the piston head.

Change is still big
9. instead of TM piston get deepfire piston w titanium coated full teeth
10 silicone piston head/duracon or polycarb

still have change
11. marui eg1000 motor or ICS turbo 3000
12 metal hop assembly systema

mercenary wrote:

WorldsEdge wrote:

I would like to know of some good upgrades (internal and external) for the JG M4 S-System that i could buy for under a maximum of 150$, if u have suggestions over that amount, ill here them too

thanks

1. invest on a good 9.6v battery that would fit your aeg.
2. metal spring guide or with bearing. V2
3. metal bushings
4. Air nozzle with 0-ring
5. pdi 170 or 190 on stock gears

still have extra cash..
6. metal cylinder head
7. tight barrel 6.03 id (prometheuse if you hav the cash)

still have change
8. stock TM piston with head. Just remove the stock spring and port the piston head.

Change is still big
9. instead of TM piston get deepfire piston w titanium coated full teeth
10 silicone piston head/duracon or polycarb

still have change
11. marui eg1000 motor or ICS turbo 3000
12 metal hop assembly systema

Not to be too crude , but
You need bearing bushings, not just std. metal bushings. And two PID 170% or 190% on STOCK gears. not to mention a eg1000...first off WTF that is just setting you up for problems in the not so distant future. No, instead of buying large spring I would go down to about say %130-%140. A more decent fit. Then get a bore up kit to compensate for the other 30-50% spring tension. You also need helical gears which are not the cheapest, available companies would include TM, CA, Area 1000 (systema), and maybe Deep Fire.

Metal hop assemblings ARE NOT neccesary. hop up buckings, nubs, and rings are. For example a shark hop bucking.

dude:

hav you tried it before?. have been doing that thing and it runs well for my guns as well as those who paid me to do it.. If there is failure it only means you did not do proper shimming. The key here is shimming. Using Pdi 170 or 190% is not that stiff (NOT 2 SPRINGS IN ONE AEG). I am not based in the US and in my location we are just too daring that it is normal here to use SP150 up to SP170 (500 UP fps). So running aegs on pdi 190 is easy for us. I am posting here to let you guys know the tricks of the trade... You may want to listen or not. Think of it this way AIRSOFT did not start in the WESTERN hemishphere and the so called teflon mod did not originate in the west too..

bearing bushings is best for high speed ROF matched with high speed gears and 9.6v batts. but in the age of lipoly batts 11.1V high ROF is easily achieved even on SPI30- SP150 using STU gears. SP130 /m130 is stronger than PDI190 springs

bearing bushings have been used on SP130 max. anything higher would be to risky (bearing breakage due to load/stress).. Oh, and have I mentioned I started playing in 1993? The time when Marui was just starting and systema did not exist yet. its on my introduce yourself section..

Bore up kits are overated as it just gives you a 10fps increase to your aeg and at what cost?
metal hops are better than stock two pc plastic hops since there is a certain air loss there, but its up to the user. If you are satisfied with the plastic then go ahead.

I can give you recommendations if you have the cash to burn as well as getting things done with a lower budget.. So before you bark and start posting WTF... listen first, you may learn something new...

No, I disagree with using a 190% spring with stock gears period, not to mention with a eg1000. And yes I saw that you've been playing since 1993. Even with shims it is impossible for the std teeth on the piston and stock gears to carry through the shot. Any kind of clone gear would have to be replaced same with the piston. Did I forget to say that you would HAVE to replace your MB shell.

This what you can do, You can spend less money and purchase High Torque gears, not forgetting to do a reshimming job. You would also need to buy a piston with metal teeth. I'm not for the whole %190 spring b/c why would someone with a AEG do that with their ROF? You would only be able to use it on semi, In this case your making a DMR. Now I can see using a tighter spring to get a little more range, but again

Quote :

range means absolutely nothing without accuracy

This upgrade alone is not worth it, not for a JG. I would invest money into a better gun to spend my time on.

Sorry this may be a HUGE upset...and Im sorry if this may seem like barking, but again this is all WTF.

so if i did get high torque gears and a new spring how much inside the gun would i need to re-enforce?

(and if you say i need to invest my money in a new gun, what gun would u recommend if i want to make a DMR/Long Range AEG?)

Ok,

to get the FPS you want to acheive, which my guess is 400 FPS w/ .25

You will need to reshim your MB with metal shims, install 6mm metal bushings, install hi-torque gears, barrel, install shark hop bucking, install big out H hop nub, and PPA140/PDI140/M140 spring, metal spring guide, BUK...

OR you can buy a Systema M4 M150 spring FTK and a reinforced MB shell to top it off.

gearbox breakage will start at SP150 if not reinforced then again there are ACM aeg's that have run for long periods on SP150 (china QC erratic).. Breakage will most likely be at the front of the gearbox where the cylinder head is located.

agree: shims (their all metal), metal bushings bec Jg uses 6mm, barrel? (tight barrel prometheuse), shark hop nub (improves accuracy but since it is made of soft material the real potential is not utilized).. metal spring guide (or with bearing)... if by hi-torque gears you are referring to super torque up gears (STU), then agree.. (STU can run max of SP150 spring)

PDI140??!!! ... pdi DOES NOT USE THE REGULAR number rating of the other mfrs.
PDI140 is not equal to systema m140 or hurricane or guarder SP140... PDI 140 is USED, AGAIN USED FOR HIGH SPEED SETUP NOT high FPS... that information is readily available ... M140 = SP140 = PDI 240% they have a theoretical fps value of 457 +/- at 0.20g bb at ZERO HOP.(PDI 140 has a theoretical value between 327-360; PDI120 -327fps, PDI 150 - 360fps)...

At M140 better start using a reinforced gearbox... If you really wanna be sure on your gearbox, start at m130...

Now, here's the thing... except for the pdi 140 almost all is right... however....
You expect him to use stock piston and head? stock cylinder and stock motor and battery? stock cylinder? (he said LONG RANGE AEG) and no suggestion to USE an air seal nozzle with 0-ring (ASN) considering that this small part with low cost would give you an increase of 20-25fps???

stock battery will NOT crank that spring... A 8.4v Sanyo sub-c 2400mah mite IF you use the STU gears but expect a low ROF... 9.6V Sanyo sub-c 2400 NO problem and ROF will be better. You want an insane ROF? Install 11.1v lipoly batteries (the higher the discharge rate the better).. so where do you stick the batteries? Crane stock?, anpeq?

Stock motor with M140? install a marui EG1000 long motor or the ICS turbo 3000 (better torque)
stock piston and head? I give you one game day max at M140 with a 457 theoretical fps at.20g (you will strip your piston teeth or break it since it is made of nylon). BETTER use deepfire titanium coated full metal teeth (polycarbonate).. since you have changed the piston, might as well replace the piston head with a non-metal ported head with bearing...
stock cylinder head? it will run..... for how long?? TM stock cylinder head? well, its better than JG's... Wanna be real sure?... Use metal cylinder head...

stock cylinder? well if you WANT long range that means you need 510mm tight barrel 6.03.. daring? use 6.02id this also means TYPE 0 cylinder....

What new gun you need? If you have money get the long barreled aeg's from names like CA, G&P, G&G etc etc... models like steyr AUG, M16 what ever variant or an m4 but installing longer inner barrel and silencer, AK SLR....

You don't have cash for high-ends.... let the models be your guide...

As an add on:

Systema springs tend to loose their tension faster that is why I personally prefer the guarder or PDI springs but guarder is cheaper here. Systema products are being copied including packaging in CHINA... not unless you truly trust your supplier that he imports direct from JAPAN... but if the China copies have the same quality and cheaper... then, why not

Quote :

metal spring guide (or with bearing)

Quote :

might as well replace the piston head with a non-metal ported head with bearing...

Using both ?? I advise against this, It has a tendancy to cause an uneven compression and decompression of the spring during operation, one or the other, but not both.

No right or wrong answer with regards to the choice for piston head and spring guide..

1. by using one end with bearing only your focus is on the compression of the spring.

my take is, bearing piston head and metal spring guide like the area 1000 since the base has a plastic (nylon, acetal, etc) ring which will help the spring rotate. Stock China aegs with metal spring guide has this thin washers at the base..

2. The approach of using both ends with bearings is primarily to protect the springs from twisting inside since they will rotate easily. This will avoid spring breakage due to twisting especially on high rated springs.. I tend to use this approach for 450fps and above (meaning, Beggining at Guarder SP130..)

possible effects if the spring breaks : None, gear damange (this is more expensive), piston head . piston damage, others...