Some clarifications on the CORRECT Represetnation of our SPORT

This sparked from a discussion in General AS, about Systemas. Or atleast that's what it was supposed to be about.

H3ll0 all, new to the froum and I need a new gun one that preferrably shoots hard and fast, but I can't spend over $120 so don't SUGGEST ANYTHING HIGHER. I need it ASAP as I have a big war this weekend in my neighbors backyard.

Hello all, It looks like I'm the FNG here and would like some help. I am looking for a new AS replica, preferably one that has a higher velocity. Unfortunately I can't spend over my $120 budget. All suggestions are welcome but please make 'em fast as I've got a game coming up this very weekend.


You tell me who sounds more educated on the sport?
...and more educated in general?

On many forums people such as the first suggestion are simply ignored, or maybe even booted because they don't want to be dealt with.

Here's a great thread already on this topic. It's actually a sticky: http://www.airsoftallies.com/general-airsoft-discussion-f3/portaying-the-game--long-but-please-read-t2566.htm

Pay close attention to the "vocabulary" section.

M14 double-taps wrote:

This sparked from a discussion in General AS, about Systemas. Or atleast that's what it was supposed to be about.

H3ll0 all, new to the froum and I need a new gun one that preferrably shoots hard and fast, but I can't spend over $120 so don't SUGGEST ANYTHING HIGHER. I need it ASAP as I have a big war this weekend in my neighbors backyard.

Hello all, It looks like I'm the FNG here and would like some help. I am looking for a new AS replica, preferably one that has a higher velocity. Unfortunately I can't spend over my $120 budget. All suggestions are welcome but please make 'em fast as I've got a game coming up this very weekend.


You tell me who sounds more educated on the sport?
...and more educated in general?

On many forums people such as the first suggestion are simply ignored, or maybe even booted because they don't want to be dealt with.

Here's a great thread already on this topic. It's actually a sticky: http://www.airsoftallies.com/general-airsoft-discussion-f3/portaying-the-game--long-but-please-read-t2566.htm

Pay close attention to the "vocabulary" section.

All I know is that the first one is shorter and gets to the point so it seems more practical to me.

Yeah the first has a few issues like "hello" and "war" but if i was to judge it the most to the point and accurate statement. The other is drawn out and has things nobody new would probably know anyway. Doesn't matter how you ask to me as long as i can read or piece together what're asking.

iliveforthis99 wrote:

Yeah the first has a few issues like "hello" and "war" but if i was to judge it the most to the point and accurate statement. The other is drawn out and has things nobody new would probably know anyway. Doesn't matter how you ask to me as long as i can read or piece together what're asking.

War? That's an issue of vocabulary, and wasn't vocabulary one of the main issues...??
And if we were strictly looking for "Short to the point" posts, this forum wouldn't be a good one. You want to provide as much detail as possible. Posts were never supposed to be short, that would be close to rank posting.

And I never said the fella was new to AS, but new to the Forum.
Honestley, it makes you sound like a Darn fool when you say things like "war" and "battle", we all agree on that, (If not please say so) so why would calling an AS replica a GUN be any different?

It's not a battle, so don't call it one. it's not a GUN, so don't call it one.

Sure, we could sit here and debate on whether it's 'politically correct' to call it a gun or not, and debate the legitimacy definitions.
but the point is, whether it's correct or not, it still makes our sport sound bad, sound DANGEROUS, so why use them??
What's the reason to use said words that I'm not seeing?

Let me put it this way. If someone comes up to you and asks you what airsoft was how would you explain using the "correct" term replica? "Airsoft is a blah blah blah, we use replicas to shoot blah blah blah." A lot of people i've met have no idea that there's something called airosft out there, so they will no doubt ask what a replica is. You'd have to use the word gun in your description to get the point across sooner or later.

Airsoft is indeed very much a dangerous sport, don't try and make is sound like it isn't. Baseball is dangerous (maybe even more so) yet we don't try and use another word for bat or ball do we to lessen that look of danger? I've talked to many people about both airsoft and paintball, i've always used the word gun. They clearly understood what i was talking about and instead of being turned off by the use of the word they sometimes expressed interest. Sure to some people using the word gun to would make them flip out or have a bad image of airosft or paintball but i believe they are a small amount or with a proper explanation be made to understand.

I don't think we should try and cover up what we do in proper politically correct words because that fails to do anything but hide what we do. And that is we run around the woods, across fields, down hallways in buildings shooting each other with things that look exactly like guns. That is the image people react to. Again instead of covering up we should make it clear what we do, how we do it, why we do it, and how much we stress safety so we can do what we do. We're not a bunch of violent, military want to be junkies, and that is the image we need to downplay. If played right airsoft can be a great form of exercise, problem solving, working with others, promoting good sportsmanship, making friends, common sense, etc.

We may use military style gear and "guns" but what are they really in this sense of what we use them for? Tools to promote violence and appear like some paramilitary group? No. They are just like football team uniforms and pads, just like a hockey stick you would use to shoot a puck into the goal. They are just like all the other sports equipment that is out there.

Bottom line is no matter what word you may want to use instead of gun it won't change image of airosft or how us as players are perceived. The image is what people see, not what we call the equipment.

I agree with iliveforthis
in the Law if you shoot someone not actively engaged in the fight (simulation) its considered a firearm and a felony. So The Law views it as a firearm regardless because it does fires a projectile.

I do Combat Simulations, the recent major one was Operation Jack. With different levels of physical violence that can stop if you say safe words which are briefed upon arrival.

Realism first, Safety Always is the motto of the place that Warsaw and I go to a lot

Meep!

Since my post was what kick-started this, I might as well say something.

Quoted from "Airsoft as a Whole: Defense Against an Offense" - Spl. Durkee

Quote :

--THE BIG PICTURE--
Airsoft as a whole is in defensive mode. Since the games inception, our government and governments abroad have been trying to ban the game so many of us enjoy. In the UK, you now have to obtain a license to operate airsoft replicas unless they are "two-tone" (neon green or yellow). In many countries and counties, airsoft is outlawed all together! Who's to say that tomorrow there wont be a politician or concerned citizen in your city hall proposing further restricions on YOUR airsoft replicas? We the players, reviewers, supporters, and reenactors need to be the first wave in changing the public's view of the hobby.

--USE APPROPRIATE PHRASES WHEN REFERING TO AIRSOFT--
For one, I've noticed an increasing amount of video reviewers and players refering to airsoft gaming as "war" or "battle". This is something that is very harmfull to the public's image of airsoft. Airsoft is not in any way, shape, or form "war" and if the public views it as such...we will lose the public's support. I would like to request on behalf of the rest of the airsoft community that we all refrain from using phrases that could lead to misunderstandings that airsoft replicas and their users are bent on causing harm, damage, and destruction. Common sense is key.

--PLAYING IN SCHOOLS, PARKS, AND OTHER PUBLIC PLACES--
I know what the majority of you are thinking: "Who's that dumb?".
Your answer: Over 4,000 arrests and detainments are made each year because of people (mainly youth) playing airsoft in schools and other illegal venues (according toSan Gabriel Valley SD). I personally know multiple people who have made the mistake of playing in schools and have had their replicas confiscated, been charged with concealed carrying of weapons, or other charges and fines. I realize that that most of you reading this are rolling your eyes by now because you aren't dumb enough to pull crap like that. I congratulate and thank you for that. But it still needs to be said and I hope you can pass it on to people you know ARE dumb enough to: Playing airsoft in schools is not only illegal, It can result in you or others being detained, fined, having you gear confiscated, and even in advanced cases...death. Officers have every right to draw and fire their WEAPONS on you and take your life if they feel that they are in danger. We play airsoft to offer a way for the everyday civilian to experience combat in an environment unlike real warfare: no casualties, no injuries, no harm (other than nice little welts). An afternoon of airsoft shouldnt be a death wish: be wise when chosing where to play.

--PROPER TRANSPORTATION AND STORAGE OF REPLICAS--
You're a police officer about to write a driver a ticket for a broken tail light. It's an average traffic stop and you think nothing of it. As you begin walking back to your patrol car to finalize the ticket, you notice something in the back seat of the man's vehicle. It's an assault rifle. Your instincts kick in as your hand drops to your holster, preparing to draw and detain the driver, knowing very well that this could become a bloody shootout. Fumbling for your radio as you try to casually walk to your vehicle as not to alarm the assailant, you make a frantic, but muffled transmission for backup. Other cars arive as you blair over the megaphone for the armed driver to show his hands and step out of the car. Your fellow officers, weapons drawn, train their lethal sights on the potentially dangerous man as you move in to detain him. The driver is in a state of shock and confusion as he is wrestled to the ground and handcuffed. What the officers don't realize is that the man in the vehicle is just an everyday guy, on his way back from a day of airsofting, who lazily stored his replica in his vehicle, in plain view. When transporting an airsoft replica use a bag/case, stowaway area, etc. along with removing the magazine, turning the safety on, or even disassembling the replica. As far as storage is concerned, stow them in an area that they are not visible or accessible. Laying on your nightstand or on your desk aren't safe places. If children are present in the household, take extra care when finding places to store your airsoft replica. Remember that the average person wont know the difference between your airsoft replica and a real firearm.

Play safe, play hard, play with honor.

--RESPECT THE REAL DEAL--
If your airsoft impression represents a specific branch or nationality of armed service, wear it with respect. Know that the uniform you are wearing, as a civian airsoft player, is worn by enlisted men and women who face death and hardship every day in real combat. Airsoft is a game of simulation, honor, and respect. So simulate combat realistically, play with honor, and respect the service memeber's you represent.

Now personally, I can see where some of my own actions could be interpreted as contradicting my original intent in a sense.
If you check out the graphic in my sig, you'll see the word "wargame". I personally feel that term in particular is perfectly correct for describing the game.

Wargame
1. An often physical or electronic simulation of a military operation involving two or more forces and using rules, data, and procedures designed to depict an actual or assumed situation.

Sounds like airsoft to me. Using "skirmish" or "wargame" as descriptions of airsoft events are not tiptoeing around anything...they're calling it what it is.
Using "war" or "battle" on the other hand, are entirely incorrect by definition in describing the game and lead to misunderstandings about our sport.


Regarding the use of "gun" or and it's alternative of "replica"...

Frankly, use whatever you feel you need to use. The reason I push "replica" so much is because...well...they are replicas.
Sure, they're guns too...but ask yourself, which one sounds less damaging to public opinion?

Spl. Durkee wrote:

Meep!

Since my post was what kick-started this, I might as well say something.


Now personally, I can see where some of my own actions could be interpreted as contradicting my original intent in a sense.
If you check out the graphic in my sig, you'll see the word "wargame". I personally feel that term in particular is perfectly correct for describing the game.

Wargame
1. An often physical or electronic simulation of a military operation involving two or more forces and using rules, data, and procedures designed to depict an actual or assumed situation.

Sounds like airsoft to me. Using "skirmish" or "wargame" as descriptions of airsoft events are not tiptoeing around anything...they're calling it what it is.
Using "war" or "battle" on the other hand, are entirely incorrect by definition in describing the game and lead to misunderstandings about our sport.


Regarding the use of "gun" or and it's alternative of "replica"...

Frankly, use whatever you feel you need to use. The reason I push "replica" so much is because...well...they are replicas.
Sure, they're guns too...but ask yourself, which one sounds less damaging to public opinion?

have you ever talked to anyone or heard of anyone freaking out because it was called an airsoft gun? thay are replicas of guns. when reffering to them in everyday conversation I will refer to it as an airsoft gun. regarding the use of battle or war, I would say that certainly doesn't fit the ticket. it sounds immature and, even if they were real guns the term war or even battle would not be the correct military term for your average game of airsoft. more like skirmish, which I think is a great description of airsoft durkee, thanks, I never thought to call it that. I always called it an airsoft game. now it will sound so much cooler when I tell people I went to an airsoft skirmish.

Thats right, they are replica's of guns.
Not guns themselves. Although they are used like 'guns', and they are made to replicate 'guns', they are not 'guns.' The term is incorrect by using it alone. Now add Airsoft before it, and your now speaking of a device that flings plastic BB's in a Firearm, or Gun-like fasion.
So please, no one use the word 'Gun' alone.
If someone were to look at your post, or a thread, without the topic, and not knowing it was a thread about airsoft in the first place, would they be able to figure it out in your post, or would they think your talking Real-Steel? Ask yourself that next time your unsure of what you should call an AS item.

For the record, this is the second time i've ever seen people having issues with the word gun being used. And that comes from about 10 years of paintball experience and 2 years in airsoft. Also to be noted that both times now it has been players themselves rather then the uninformed public that have taken issue with it. I really think it'd being taken to seriously, no matter what you call it to the publics eye a replica will be seen as a gun and referred to as such. Calling them for what they are or whatever isn't harming anything, it's our failure as a group to properly display the entire image of the game as a whole in a better way.

Paintball for example, also had/has it's trouble in displaying the sport side of the game over it's military style side. That has been improved with better PR and the outbreak of competitive arena style tournaments to even professional leagues and players that hold sport icon status. Sure paintball still has it's haters from society but guess what, i hate NASCAR. Does that make it any less of a sport or that it should be shut down because it "promotes" fast driving?

The paintball industry has picked up on the sport side of the game and have done an outstanding job of promoting it as such. It still has it's mil-sim roots which are developing into a whole new side of the arena tournament scene with organised leagues and professional teams and the backing of the industry that caters to the more flashy tournament group.

Granted airsoft and paintball are two different (yet still similar) things, and arena style tournaments don't quite fit into airsoft as they do in paintball. Now i haven't been in airsoft for as long most of you have, but from what i've seen is a failure by the industry to shift from overzealous focus on the military aspect to one more focused on a sport. Admittedly the military and war aspect of airsoft is very hard to get over, again look at our gear, and it's probably not something we can get over entirely. Airsoft as a whole lacks a strong PR movement that i can see, we need to figure out exactly how we want to be represented. Whether as a more clear cut sim game that pits players in an advanced objective military style as it is now, or something of the same but in a more organized and professional manner.

Whether you call it a gun or a replica, war or a skirmish, kills or hits they are all just the tip of the ice burg that is the image of the game we love and play. And as a whole they are the least of our representation problems. Let me pose a question. Could it be, the very image of airsoft now to the publics eyes that we have allowed to fester be the source of the issue with the word gun or war? We try and use different terms to redirect the appearance of something yet we leave that thing be without trying to polish it up and define it in a more meaningful or clear way. We use the word replica to replace gun and try hard to ignore that that item shares so many aspects of the real deal and that no matter what we call it is what the public sees. Using the word skirmish or game to replace war or battle does nothing to make the public understand that we aren't a bunch of war junkies. They simply change our perception of them to one of denial when what we need to change is the publics view and we can't do that by changing what we call things and leaving those things be.

Perhaps a better way would be to familiarize the guns more to say like a baseball bat or a tennis racket. You can't play baseball without a bat and likewise tennis without a racket. Sure they are guns and yeah we shoot people with them but hey that's the way the game is played right? Just like football players running into each other and boxers trying to abuse their opposite number by beating the living daylights out of them before they do the same to them. Notice two other violent sports with boxing being many times more violent then airsoft. The public needs to be made to understand that airsoft is a game, a sport that has integrity and rules and has good things to offer like those in my previous post. We can not achieve that by changing a word or two and leaving the real aspect of the game in the shadows away from the public eye.

I don't know, maybe i have no idea what i'm talking about. Wouldn't be the first time

Well, I think the biggest issue with using "War, Guns, etc," is, do we remember when that whole shipment of Replicas was taken, because of the fear that they could be used as real firearms.
THAT is what concerns me. Because when we call them guns, or when your talking to your buddies that don't know airsoft, and your like "Yeah, has a full metal body, etc. etc.", people start to think that these really are just 'Modded Guns'.
Using the term "Replica" is a much better way to discribe them. Basically, it just keeps our replicas in our hands.

alexkmmll wrote:

Well, I think the biggest issue with using "War, Guns, etc," is, do we remember when that whole shipment of Replicas was taken, because of the fear that they could be used as real firearms.
THAT is what concerns me.

That episode was because the ATF guy was an idiot.

alexkmmll wrote:

Because when we call them guns, or when your talking to your buddies that don't know airsoft, and your like "Yeah, has a full metal body, etc. etc.", people start to think that these really are just 'Modded Guns'.
Using the term "Replica" is a much better way to discribe them. Basically, it just keeps our replicas in our hands.

But see that is our fault for not trying to provide a better more clear image of airsoft a whole. As it stands now i can totally see and understand where you are coming from with not wanting to use the word gun even though i think it defies logic to say it isn't a gun. Saying it is or isn't or labeling it something different does nothing to address the bigger picture which is where the publics eyes are on.

Reading through all of it, one side continues to miss the big picture, sure it can be correct to call them "guns", if you please. However, Durkee said it best, why WOULDNT you use the term that sounds less damaging to society?? I simply don't get it.
If you were describing our hobby to someone and they were thrown off because you used a simple word like "replica", youve got bigger issues there...
All you would need to say is this: "A replica of a firearm... Or gun, that shoots little 6mm balls ar high velocities." if you need to dumb it down, of course do so.

I just fail to see why we'd use any term that can further the damage ATF has done and other mis-understandings have caused. It doesnt seem plausible, especially at a crucial time for our hobby such as this.


Look at all my posts from the very beginning, i've always called AS OUR sport or OUR hobby, because it's exactly that. Its OURS. And its up to us to take care if it, and represent it properly...

Similar to a REAL gun eh??

Does any of this matter?
Both sides are stupid and wrong.
I win.

But in all seriousness, this thread seems VERY anal.
I say gun, I say skirmish, I say battle. Those are all I need.

M14 double-taps wrote:

Reading through all of it, one side continues to miss the big picture, sure it can be correct to call them "guns", if you please. However, Durkee said it best, why WOULDNT you use the term that sounds less damaging to society?? I simply don't get it. Because i fail to see anyone outside of airsoft having a problem with them being called airsoft guns. Plus to me someone who has grown up being around real steel guns airsoft guns are guns and should be regarded as such not diminished with a different word
If you were describing our hobby to someone and they were thrown off because you used a simple word like "replica", youve got bigger issues there...
All you would need to say is this: "A replica of a firearm... Or gun, that shoots little 6mm balls ar high velocities." if you need to dumb it down, of course do so.

I just fail to see why we'd use any term that can further the damage ATF has done and other mis-understandings have caused. It doesnt seem plausible, especially at a crucial time for our hobby such as this. Because it's not harming anything. It's stupid people who use airsoft guns the wrong way and the sports unorganized and shadowed nature that is harming it.


Look at all my posts from the very beginning, i've always called AS OUR sport or OUR hobby, because it's exactly that. Its OURS. And its up to us to take care if it, and represent it properly... Which again we are failing to do because we're stuck in the shadows trying to avoid the public eye for fear of being misunderstood.

Similar to a REAL gun eh??

This is exactly what i'm talking about. We aren't organized and don't have any set way of describing airsoft if we can't even come to terms on what to call things. We are the ones hurting airsoft.

M14 double-taps wrote:

Reading through all of it, one side continues to miss the big picture, sure it can be correct to call them "guns", if you please. However, Durkee said it best, why WOULDNT you use the term that sounds less damaging to society??

the thing is, the term gun isn't damaging to society. the only people that get freaked out by the use of the word gun are democrats. when talking about airsoft I have never had anyone get upset because I called it a gun.

iliveforthis wrote:

guess what, i hate NASCAR

what?! how is that possible.........

Yes exactly, I fail to see any evidence that the word gun is harmful to airsoft.

A. sniper wrote:

the only people that get freaked out by the use of the word gun are democrats.

Point and case.

I thought it was "case in point"

Creed769 wrote:

VERY anal.

Ew.

LOL Democrats only populate half the country Durkee, it's nothing to worry about

/sarcasm

Ok Ok, I realize I probably come across as a nazi but...it's still a good point.
When you're at a friggin' game and you say "Airsoft Gun", yes of course people are going to know what you're talking about and aren't going to freak out...

/no-brainer.

And you need some evidence of prople freaking out over word usage?
..ATF, obviously, on several occasions,

It's not the situation, per say, but how this report is wrtitten with the EXACT vocab you're saying is OK, and they're clearly making it look bad and the hobby dangerous with these words.
And another:
http://airsoftgun.blogspot.com/2007/07/witnesses-back-look-alike-gun-airsoft.html

http://www.wasecacountynews.com/news.php?viewStory=4204

And lastly, skirmish was said to be ok, but when you call it a battle or war....you honestley do just sound childish
I used these terms as well don't get me wrong, I'll be the first to admit it.
But that was a few years back and now I realize how dumb I sounded

DrummerBoyz95 wrote:

I thought it was "case in point"

Pssshhhhh I'm just that cool. Take that society and structured idioms!

M14 double-taps wrote:

And lastly, skirmish was said to be ok, but when you call it a battle or war....you honestley do just sound childish

yeah, I completely agree with you there. that wouldn't be the correct term for a fight of that length in real combat, so, especially in airsoft, it's just stupid and immature to call it a war or battle. plus, skirmish just sounds so much cooler.

your point is made. I suppose certain people *cough cough* our president *cough cough* may be a little over-sensitive about the word "gun". I am officially done arguing against you.

M14 double-taps wrote:

And you need some evidence of prople freaking out over word usage?
..ATF, obviously, on several occasions,

Well it's pretty clear by now that the intelligence level of some ATF agents is quite low.

iliveforthis99 wrote:

M14 double-taps wrote:

And you need some evidence of prople freaking out over word usage?
..ATF, obviously, on several occasions,

Well it's pretty clear by now that the intelligence level of some ATF agents is quite low.

Lest we all agree on THAT!! AMEN!

i find myself using both terms "gun" and "replica" so it creates a sort of equilibrium with me