Cerberus Plan (domino effect)

Satan wrote:

The best way to win most games is get a recon force (usually me and my spotter) to relay back information via radio to your team, who can use this information to stay one step ahead of the enemy, advance while guarding your flanks and keep the fire up and consistent, suppressing the enemy (this is where DM's, Snipers and support gunners are really very useful) while the riflemen/close quarters combatants advance on their objectives. Jim you just proved yourself wrong. Those snipers and DMS and heavy gunners are all dead. So how can those CQC and riflemen operate to take out those objectives. With this plan the enemy isn't just going to lay down and cry when you kill the objectives you simpily weaken them you don't win when you kill the heads youwin when you kill everyone left.

Without meaning to be aggressive here, maybe you should READ more carefully. You will notice that I was giving you an alternative tactic, not a tactic countering yours. Secondly, it is utterly ludicrous to say 'those snipers and gunners are all dead' because there is ZERO PERCENT chance that you would actually manage to kill off EVERY sniper, DM and support gunner. And a squad of riflemen can function fine without support, just not at their maximum capacity.

I was giving a broad tactic that is used to great effect in airsoft by any decent team and in real life as the basic tactic, since suppressive fire and engaging key targets is what the term 'SUPPORT UNIT' implies and does by definition.

And to say 'you proved yourself wrong' implies I was trying to prove anything or start an argument. It's not an argument against you, it's constructive criticism of your suggested and explanation of the tactics I use. If you don't like that, why are you on a FORUM anyway?!

Jim

Yes mabey I came off wrong with that last post. I meant that as in yes thats a widley used and accepted plan. This plan counteracts that by crushing it and any backup plan. The three times Ive used it (with success 3/3 times) were when I crushed teams useing that very plan or a variation of it. Sorry to sound as if i was attacking you there jim.

I am still highly dubious about your confidence in this plan 'crushing' this plan and ANY backup plan.

Firstly what I specified is too broad a tactic to employ your highly specific tactics against

Secondly, there is NO WAY that you could take out EVERY sniper, dm and support gunner. That's a totally ridiculous claim.

Thirdly, many teams don't have or need a commander, and the ones that do will always plan for the eventuality of him getting hit.

When you say that employing this tactic has worked, I assume you are talking about very small scale games with say 10-20 people on each side?

Jim

Yes but even in larger games I only encounter about 2 to 3 snipers and maybe 5 DMs Im not talking about 200 player mil-slims.

Neither am I, I'm talking about 40-80 people per side. There are normally about 5-10 snipers/dm's and 1-5 support gunners per team. The main problem with your tactic is FINDING them, then there is the issue that in most games you don't just get ONE life. Tracking down and eliminating those very specific targets on a large playing area is pretty much impossible, especially since 'support gunner' is really just anyone with a high ROF and a lot of ammo, meaning most people who play can be a support gunner.

Jim

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I don't even do plans , neither does our team .

David, John, Mike you go left, Sarah, Denise, Bob you right, Myself, Mellisa, and Mark wil go up the middle, the first group that makes contact, yell for help and the rest will come in for support.

Guess what Bama, thats a Plan.

Tactics are just like Noses, everybody has one, and none of them are perfect.

What may work for Satan and on the playing field that he is used to, may not work on the Fields that TheJim plays on. Just because you have had success dosn´t mean it is Fool Proof.

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I assume you are talking about very small scale games with say 10-20 people on each side?

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Yes but even in larger games I only encounter about 2 to 3 snipers and maybe 5 DMs

So now we have established the size of the Teams that you have used your tactic on, I am going to assume that we are talking about Death match type of games, Force on Force, 1 life, no respawn, woodland games.

Not to be taking any sides, but I agree with TheJim, just because it has worked up until now, dosn´t mean it is going to work every time, sooner or later somebody is going to get wise, and come up with a better Idea to counter yours.

May I also point out that some of the largest and most effective teams in Ohio don't even use Snipers/DM's. Yes they use SAW's but only during certain operations. The rest are what you guys call "rifleman" or "cqb experts".

The problem with the plan above is rifleman(well where I'm at anyways) are extremely resourceful. May I also point out that Snipers, DM's, and SAW gunners are all specialty positions. This means that in no way will someone cripple a team(as slob and jim pinted out) by taking out their specialists. They might make them alot less efficient, but they surely wont cripple them. Also the Ohio teams that I play with that use specialists train every other rifleman or non specialist to act as a crack DM or Sniper or even as a crack SAW gunner(think M4 with 25RPS). If you really want to be effective you need to be able to carry on without an element.

"A team shouldn't have a commander in my opinion, they should decide on a plan together, and communicate within their squads to decide on their course of action, then communicate inter-squad to co-ordinate their collective efforts and complete the objectives." - Jim

While that can be used in most situations, sometimes you just need someone to say OK where going to do this this and this. The best way of combining both our ideas is finding someone who best represents the squads opinion. Even though I have been in a command opportunity very few times, the squads have always been happy with me in the end. I always try to ask for a second opinion on things from the squad I'm in, not because I am ignorant of a good plan but I want to see things from different perspectives.

Satan: the problem with all your plans is you rely on the specialists to do everything. Maybe all the good players at your local events/backyard games are specialists, but I can guarantee you most of these tactics will not go very well when you go to larger regional games. Try thinking about the rifleman not as a inapt piece of cannon fodder. Try thinking about him as someone who can fill any role you want him to fill. If they cannot train them to do so. If you really want success you need to use your rifleman as skilled game winners, not a cannon fodder.

sticks

This thread is going to have a lot of controversy because every one has their own opinion , I for one am getting out this topic .l But before I do I will say this , not all tatics are perfect and none , I repeat none will be . That is all .

Controversy can be constructive though. So im keeping my wits about this thread.

All end all. the simplest and most effective skirmish tactics will prevail.

relying on a spec. team to do everything is a load of crap...no offense. I recommend you use everyone and every group of the team. Relying on a spec. team will make your team pretty short, pretty quick.

This also depends on the game type your playing tho, and I am speaking to all other colleagues coughjimcough. You may be in a situation where stealth is imperative, why not send in the spec.s first then provide back up 10 minutes later to ditch them out. especially in a game like VIP.

Training these teams is where it gets complex. Spec teams have to play often to keep their skills up. I recommend NO spec team right now satan. Wait till you guys get about 15 + members then you can rotate roles easier. everyone should be allowed on the spec. team at one time or another. same as if people were team leaders. Your team should strive for equal everything in skill of individuals. Eliminating variations will reduce stress.

Go with squad leaders, not commanders. keep things loose don't put pressure on other players. stick to a plan everyone is capable of and agrees with. did I mention rotating roles before

Now were starting to beat the dead horse...unless were missing something

True , controversy could be good or bad , you never know , but I have a feeling this thread is going to get long because of the same people arguing over whiether this plan will work or not . But its not the just the plan thats being discussed .

People need to crop out threads like I did for "team grouping" Just to keep this thing on topic

No I don't think this plan will work because most teams don't put pressure on one person. done.

At A_S and Lone Wolf, I think that going off topic in this way can be very constructive- it helps everyone reading to develop their tactics by looking at what other people use.

Jim

Jeez never had I thought something I would say would be this interesting. A lot of great points have come up. Slobs especially ( I never thought about this) how we play teams our constructed as such.

A bunch of guys maybe 6 or 7 just have small airsoft games then they hear about larger ones so they just grab all there friends get them simple infantry weapons and they do 1 or 2 days of training then go at it with other teams. Every single team in maybe 120 mile radius have constructed themselves in this way also every one of those teams the original 6 or 7 guys are the snipers gunners commanders and DMs so when we kill those 6 or 7 everyone else is screwed out of the game.

As for us and as head of training everyone is trained in there specific class for a few weeks then there trained as an infantry men and how to operate the usual guns found with a "dead" body AKs M16 M4. Before this causes arguments the way we play is where your shot and when your killed you fall down like a dead body lay there and are allowed to do nothing but breath and people are allowed to pick up and use your weapons which thy after the game leave it in the gun box to be picked up again.

sharpie doesn't stand out too well on black my friend. especially if you have a common gun

AT Jim: Ok, check my post before A_S where I said controversy can be a good thing, I don't feel like copying and pasting. lol

I never said going off topic is wrong in this case it is very helpful , but I am just trtying to point out that different people have different opinions on different matters .

ok back to off topic though...lolz

Well maybe the plan works for you if every local team is set up the same way, but playing against more organized teams that train together more often this plan won't be as sucessful. Also the DMR's, Snipers, and Heavy Gunners aren't the heart and sole of a team. That would be the stantard infantry. If used effectivly these specilazied branches help tremendously, but don't hold a team up. All just my opinion though.

in my opinion no one group of people hold a team together a team that works well and practices all have the same pros and cons taking out a sniper doesn't always cripple a team you could take out a rifleman and it would have an even larger effect on the team so no real plan really works unless you know exactly how important each individual member on a team is and you take them out in that order.

Satan- 'Head of training' wow thats crazy deep. You guys take airsoft REALLY seriously huh? I don't think you can train people how to airsoft it's really just a learning curve.

And I would NEVER play at your site with those rules- I'm surprised anyone agrees to it! Sounds VERY boring once you're hit and TAKING PEOPLE'S STUFF?! Omg man.

Jim

TheJim wrote:

Satan- 'Head of training' wow thats crazy deep. You guys take airsoft REALLY seriously huh? I don't think you can train people how to airsoft it's really just a learning curve.

And I would NEVER play at your site with those rules- I'm surprised anyone agrees to it! Sounds VERY boring once you're hit and TAKING PEOPLE'S STUFF?! Omg man.

Jim

I think your going to far to prove a point jim. as we said before there are military brats here in the US who like the whole mega marine style. Your right it is a learning curve. But you can consider training something like practicing certian drills that your team can use effectively. bad controversy jim. ad hominem is not constructive.

admin - please lock this thread

I am going to go off topic for a bit here, just because I have seen a trend starting that is really getting to be a bit disturbing,


Airsoft is a Hobby/Sport,

There are no Battlefields in Airsoft, there are Playing Fields.
There are no Wars in Airsoft, there are Games, Matches, Events.
There are no Soldiers in Airsoft, we are Players.
There are no Kills in Airsoft, there are Players that are HIT.
There are no DEAD in Airsoft, there are players that are out of Play.

The only reason that I bring this up is because, we would all like to see this Forum develop and to grow, we would all like to demostrate that the Members here are Resposable and Mature, using terms like this to describe how we play, demostrates the opposite. So lets all try to refrain from using them, Please.

So back on topic,

This thread has shown that we all value our own individual tactics, and style of play.
No one Tactic is the Answer for every situation.
No One player is the success to the teams objective.
Different Playing fields have Different rules.
An intelligent and maybe heated discussion is Healthy for development of the Sport.


I have my doubts about this Tactic, just from my own experiance, but I am going to give SATAN the benifit of the doubt and try it in 2 weeks, I am a Company Commander at a 600 player MIL-SIM. Will let you know how it goes.

with that,

CLOSED.