WikiLeaks, countergovernment, and civil disobedience

You don't have to agree with it, but it is a large part of my life and will effect every single one of us...so I wanted to share

Anarchy is not disorder, destruction, and chaos. Anarchy is living for one another...where responsibilities are earned, not ordered...where mutual respect and agreement, not submission and obedience, is the basis of society. Riot police are riot police, whatever their national allegiance. And in these circumstances, they are hired bodyguards to capitalism's elite. They are a physical obstacle between us and those we seek to stop. Through flowers or firebombs.

Who gave man the right to command man?

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WikiLeaks
WikiLeaks has released more classified documents than the rest of the world's media combined. Exposing immoral behavior, coverups, and shadow operations...it truly is the new face of world media...a world where even those in power cannot hide their twisted wrongdoings. What more can you say?

Check out the video below, absolutely brilliant.

http://svtplay.se/v/2264028/wikirebels_the_documentary

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15 REASONS TO BE ANGRY
You know how we're always banging on about 'anger being an energy'? Well, this is enough to charge our batteries for years. It's a shameful disgrace.

1. Since 1960 the countries where the richest 20% of the world's people live have increased their share of gross world product from 73% to 83%. These rich countries are now sixty times better off than those where the poorest 20% live.

2. 800 million people in the world are severely malnourished or starving.

3. 40,000 children under the age of five die each day from malnutrition and vaccine preventable disease. 33,000 children die every day in developing countries - mainly from easily preventable diseases. This is the equivalent of dropping a bomb similar to the one dropped on Hiroshima on the poor children of the world every three days.

4. 358 people own as much wealth as half the world's population.

5. About 11 million people are homeless in the world. One person in three in poor countries is homeless or in severely sub-standard housing. A third of the population in most third world countries are squatters. 100 million children live or work on the streets. There are more than 10 million refugees and five million internally displaced people.

6. 37 million people have been driven from their homes by violence or armed conflict, 80% of them women and children. More than one billion people - the majority of them children - either have no home or live in inadequate housing.

7. 400 million people live under military dictatorships propped up by multinationals that earn huge profits from the cheap labour these regimes provide

8. 8.4 million children are trapped in slavery, trafficking, prostitution, debt bondage, pornography and other illicit activities. 250 million children are child labourers. 22,000 children die each year in work-related accidents. Source: International Labour Organisation (Guardian 10/June/03)

9. If present rates of destruction continue, tropical forests have at most a decade of life. 80% of our world's ancient forest has been destroyed. Every two seconds, a football pitch-sized chunk of ancient forest is cut down.

10. World military spending is over $800 billion per year, with the US spending $396 billion - more than six times larger than that of Russia, the second largest spender.

11. The richest 200 people in the world have a combined wealth of more than $1 trillion - equal to the annual income of the poorest 47% of the earths population, some 2.5 billion people. 'The 200 richest people in the world, for instance, more than doubled their net worth between 1994 and 1998, to more than $1 trillion. Meanwhile, disparities continue to grow: In 1960, the income gap between the richest fifth of the world's population and the poorest fifth was 30 to 1; in 1997 it was 74 to 1.'

12. Westerners spend $37 billion a year on pet food and perfumes - enough to provide education, food, health care, water and sanitation for all those now deprived of the basics - with $9 billion to spare. In 1997 the world spent $435 billion on advertising, mostly in Europe, North America and Japan. That is nearly 8 times the amount that was channeled to the developing world in the form of official development assistance.

13. A child born in New York, Paris and London will consume, pollute and waste more in their lifetime than 50 children born in a developing country.

14. There are 15 individuals in the world who are worth more than the whole of sub-Sahara Africa - some 600 million people while over 100 million children throughout the world are forced to work under hazardous and often fatal conditions; many are employed under slave- like conditions for no pay.

15. Bill Gates could foot the cost for paying for basic education, health care and safe water supplies for the 4.4 billion people who lack basic sanitation and still be a billionaire ten times over afterward.

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Great web service posted below, full of information and means of getting involved in your government through civil disobedience, activism, and speech.
http://www.urban75.com/Action/index.html

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I have a lot more to add...but my fingers are tired. Feel free to contribute, contest, and discuss.

Uh yeah you're talking about mankind here, the most base, cruel, idiotic, fracked up life form on this rock. Big shocker we treat our own kind like crap.

Wow Durkee, wow.
I don't think I can talk to you anymore.

I can't see if you are for this or against this though, you just pulled info off sites it seemed like, and I really don't understand what you stand for.

Anarchy is stupid. Gov is good in controlled settings (Limited Gov). Anarchy (Like in London) is stupid. "Students" complaining about tuition hikes, come on. They were poking Prince Charles in his car saying: "Off with his head."

If you have any historic knowledge whatsoever, you will be educated in the French Revolution.
Guess what, same stuff is happening now. IS everyone here able to send hundreds to the guillotine?

http://www.afed.org.uk/
Abolish capitalism? Come on! Really now?

iliveforthis99 wrote:

Uh yeah you're talking about mankind here, the most base, cruel, idiotic, fracked up life form on this rock. Big shocker we treat our own kind like crap.

But what's the root of that? Mankind instinctively builds relations for survival. For the majority of mankind's evolutionary time on earth, we've been prey to predatory game. Over time, the desire for cooperation and inter-clan bonds was built on necessity and ingrained in our instinctual pallet...a pallet which largely remains with us. It seems strange to us because we are an independence-trained society, but man is naturally adept at communal survival.

The root of the cruelty and ignorance is strictly cultural. We live in a world where we identify only ourselves. Everyone else are just...."others". We build these social mechanisms as a barbaric means of survival in an age when independence training has left us isolated and distrustful. It's less that we treat people like crap as it is that our society, which for the most part provides everything we need without reliance on others, has taught us that selfishness is a means of survival.

When you get down to it, this cultural trait of isolationism is what causes government to fail. The role of the modern rep-vs.-dem republic is to have two equally isolated bodies of meat battle it out to push their ideas and ideals on the masses...with little regard for mutual understanding or agreement. Anarchy, though often (wrongly) built from brutish pillars, is a means of personal freedom with leveling mechanisms that keep people from declaring control over others without consent.

The role of a true anarchist is to bring about the growth of personal liberties through non-violence...to limit the control of man over man...and liberate the masses from the shackles of government. Flowers before firebombs.

"Anarchism does not mean bloodshed; it does not mean robbery, arson, etc. These monstrosities are, on the contrary, the characteristic features of capitalism. Anarchism means peace and tranquility to all." --August Spies, Haymarket anarchist

Creed769 wrote:

I can't see if you are for this or against this though, you just pulled info off sites it seemed like, and I really don't understand what you stand for.

For what and against what? Information pulled from websites that represent the mainstream cause. Only thing "pulled" from anywhere was the 15 facts...which are all cited to their original government sources.

Creed769 wrote:

Anarchy is stupid. Gov is good in controlled settings (Limited Gov). Anarchy (Like in London) is stupid. "Students" complaining about tuition hikes, come on. They were poking Prince Charles in his car saying: "Off with his head."

What is happening in London now is not anarchy. There is still government there...obviously (cite: riot police). Anarchy is not "lawlessness" or "unruliness"...it is the absence of established government. The students (no quotations needed, they are students) are demanding the destratification of economic ties to free/inexpensive education that was promised to them by the governing body. The 1% screaming bloody murder and demanding Prince Charles' beheading do not stand for the movement, but they are not anarchists...just meatheads out for blood.

Creed769 wrote:

If you have any historic knowledge whatsoever, you will be educated in the French Revolution.
Guess what, same stuff is happening now. IS everyone here able to send hundreds to the guillotine?

I don't understand what you're saying. The core movement has nothing to do with killing parliament or beheading dignitaries...it's about demanding rights promised to them. The only reason anarchists are getting involved is because it is the perfect induction and recruitment for the cause. What's better than a few million disgruntled 18-24 year-olds (would-be future government figures) on your side in a movement to reduce government control so false promises cannot be made in the future.

Creed769 wrote:

Abolish capitalism? Come on! Really now?

-Capitalism requires continuous economic growth, which broadens the need for resources to provide a product.
-Capitalism encourages the exploitation of the working class.
-Capitalism discommunicates status from output.
-Capitalism encourages selfish exchange and conspicuous consumption.

In a perfect world, we'd still be utilizing a gift economy or communal wealth.

Is man inherently good? Is he Durkee? How can it be proved? I would like to know.
How can it be strictly cultural influence, how?

Creed769 wrote:

Is man inherently good? Is he Durkee? How can it be proved? I would like to know.
How can it be strictly cultural influence, how?

"Good" and "evil" are cultural concepts. It's hard to argue the it with a devout religious, as the idea does take an open mind to comprehend. Mankind is not a "blank slate" as some scholars believe (naturalism). Human nature is more properly seen as an adaptation to the situations encountered by our ancestors as they evolved, not as something having essential moral properties. The idea of what is "right" and what is "wrong" relies on culture (though many religious would contest that) and biological influence.

Automatic reactions to stimuli such as a hand laid on a hot iron then quickly retracted due to the inherent reception of "pain", then recalling the iron as being inherently "bad" is uniquely human. The same basic function is used to develop complex and broad ideas about what is "bad" and "good" based on biological responses to external stimuli.

So Durkee, are you with WikiLeaks then?

What'd you post, AllTheGoodNamesWereTaken, I can't see it for some reason :/

alexkmmll wrote:

So Durkee, are you with WikiLeaks then?

Most definitely.

My favorite comment on it:
"The USA certainly has the monopoly on bullshit production. Whether it's Iraq and their WMD's, Chavez and his suppression of the media, whenever an unlikely story needs to be bought by the unbelievably gullible US public, the bullshit machine goes into overdrive." --Timmeh! (Anonymous comment on BBC news)

We the Sheep are Slaves to the Bullshit Machine...

Spl. Durkee wrote:

What'd you post, AllTheGoodNamesWereTaken, I can't see it for some reason :/

alexkmmll wrote:

So Durkee, are you with WikiLeaks then?

Most definitely.

My favorite comment on it:
"The USA certainly has the monopoly on bullshit production. Whether it's Iraq and their WMD's, Chavez and his suppression of the media, whenever an unlikely story needs to be bought by the unbelievably gullible US public, the bullshit machine goes into overdrive." --Timmeh! (Anonymous comment on BBC news)

I personally hate WikiLeaks. I can't believe people support them. They released things that not only put the US in a tight spot with public relations, but also put lives in danger. So what, our Government doesnt tell us everything. Do you have secrets? Are you completely honest with your parents, friends, etc.? I think not.

If your supporting WikiLeaks, what are you supporting?

Agreed. They may think they are doing the right thing and some may agree with them. But, sometimes doing the right thing isn't doing the right thing. I would honestly love to see the wikileaks guy locked up for life for espionage or something. Kinda surprised he hasn't had an "accident" yet.

alexkmmll wrote:

I personally hate WikiLeaks. I can't believe people support them. They released things that not only put the US in a tight spot with public relations, but also put lives in danger. So what, our Government doesnt tell us everything. Do you have secrets? Are you completely honest with your parents, friends, etc.? I think not.

How have they put lives in danger? Because the government says so? The government puts lives in danger every day. They need to learn that injustices cannot just go without punishment. For a nation bent on solving the world's problems, we need to take a step back and think about the problems we create in the process. A government for the people, by the people is reliant on transparency. What is released reveals unethical and unconstitutional behavior. If anything, the results of this will be that our government will crack down on corruption (not likely).

alexkmmll wrote:

If your supporting WikiLeaks, what are you supporting?

I support knowing what our government is doing when they represent the United States of America, be it in war or peace. Anything less would be following blind.

iliveforthis99 wrote:

Agreed. They may think they are doing the right thing and some may agree with them. But, sometimes doing the right thing isn't doing the right thing.

When is doing the right thing not right? (Great movie by the way)

iliveforthis99 wrote:

I would honestly love to see the wikileaks guy locked up for life for espionage or something.

By all means, lock him up. He's breaking the government's posted laws. But that won't do anything to WikiLeaks as a whole. It's already inspired an entire generation of revolutionaries and peacemakers to carry on the fight. BTW, he's wanted not for espionage...but for rape.

iliveforthis99 wrote:

Kinda surprised he hasn't had an "accident" yet.

That's exactly what Daniel Assange wants us to do, actually. It would confirm all leaks and ideas of the US's wrongdoings.

What if knowing what our government is doing isn't the best choice. There is a reason that the government doesnt let the public know everything they're doing.
You wanna know whats going on inside our government, become a politician.
Last time I checked, we weren't living in Vietnam or N. Korea, so stop acting like it. What WikiLeaks did was take an already corrupt situation, and made it even more corrupt.
You want to change the world, you want to make us live in a better place, become a politician. Become president, and then say that the government should tell the public everything.

alexkmmll wrote:

What if knowing what our government is doing isn't the best choice. There is a reason that the government doesnt let the public know everything they're doing.

Why wouldn't want to know what our government is doing in our name, with our soldiers, money, and lives? What could possibly condone keeping secrets from those who put the government in place and who they represent in their actions. Look at it this way...if someone used your identity to slaughter schoolchildren and used your own ideals and morals to justify it, you wouldn't be upset?

alexkmmll wrote:

What WikiLeaks did was take an already corrupt situation, and made it even more corrupt.

What WikiLeaks did was take a corrupt and hypocritical situation and expose it to the world. WikiLeaks itself is proof of government corruption. Who do you think "leaked" the information?
(Answer: Your government!)

alexkmmll wrote:

You want to change the world, you want to make us live in a better place, become a politician. Become president, and then say that the government should tell the public everything.

Truth is not determined by majority vote. That is the grand draw of anarchy (and, evidently, direct democracy)...living your life as you see fit and letting others live theirs as they see fit.

Uh, no. OUR government (you live here too) did not leak the information. You see, you can't say that the government as a whole leaked it, because that is vastly incorrect. It only takes ONE person to leak information. Lets put it this way, WikiLeaks goal was to take a seemingly corrupt situation and expose it to the world. For what? To change?
Well congrats Wikileaks, look what you've done. NOTHING! Nothing's changed besides the fact that you stirred up a bunch of arguments and discussions that should not have been stirred up in the first place.
WikiLeaks has done nothing except put us worse off then before, so congrats to all of you supporters, you've changed nothing.

Quote :

Nothing's changed besides the fact that you stirred up a bunch of arguments and discussions that should not have been stirred up in the first place.

So, you believe we should just sweep all of this inhumane and criminal evidence under the rug and move on with being a submissive public.

I believe we should do the right thing. But my beliefs don't matter. None of ours matter (Except for those of you who are 18+). Frankly, this kind of stuff should not be posted on this forum. It only causes arguements.

Good idea. I will go back to listening to my Rock music and drooling over my next airsoft purchase while keeping my nose out of grown-up business. Good Evening, and Good Night America...

Insane Mercc wrote:

Good idea. I will go back to listening to my Rock music and drooling over my next airsoft purchase while keeping my nose out of grown-up business. Good Evening, and Good Night America...

Amen.

In my opinion this whole topic is just idiotic to begin with.

Wikileaks shouldn't have done what they did. Sure governments do bad things sure they put lives in danger, but a majority of those lives signed up for that to happen. (i.e. signing the country when you join the military, police force etc) wikileaks possibly endangered more lives than were already endangered by stupidly releasing that information.

I think bringing all the successful people into this argument is stupid as well. They earned their way to where they are now, (a majority at least) they are not part of this equation.

All in all a stupid topics. Now take a second to look at the site's banner. An think how that banner relates to this topic and the feelings it is ensuing.

I can't believe that you can say this (Durkee). You understand that if you lived anywhere else, you (and all your little anarchist friends) would be hanged for treason?

So, if Wikileaks leaked a location of all of our nukes, would it be bad?
YES
So, if Wikileaks leaked strategic locations of our defense it wouldnt it be bad?
YES
So, if Wikileaks leaked top secret CIA data to TERRORISTS that want to see the nations down fall, would it be bad?
YES

Durkee, you either don't understand, or don't want to understand this issue. The nation is at risk, and you are happy for it to do so.
Im glad they are gonna be locked up, Im glad.
Furthermore, why don't you try to change another country that really needs it, instead of trying to fix this one, which is still fairly good.

Creed769 wrote:

I can't believe that you can say this (Durkee). You understand that if you lived anywhere else, you (and all your little anarchist friends) would be hanged for treason?

So, if Wikileaks leaked a location of all of our nukes, would it be bad?
YES
So, if Wikileaks leaked strategic locations of our defense it wouldnt it be bad?
YES
So, if Wikileaks leaked top secret CIA data to TERRORISTS that want to see the nations down fall, would it be bad?
YES

Durkee, you either don't understand, or don't want to understand this issue. The nation is at risk, and you are happy for it to do so.
Im glad they are gonna be locked up, Im glad.
Furthermore, why don't you try to change another country that really needs it, instead of trying to fix this one, which is still fairly good.

this is a petty and childish argument between you guys. (not just you creed)

I agree, lets end it here.

Press ANY key to end....So.. wheres the End key..