WikiLeaks, countergovernment, and civil disobedience

Whoa whoa, hold it haha
This is a forum and we are in the Lounge...and I see nothing against forum rules

There are more people that want to discuss it I'm sure...and discussion is the key to building opinion on a subject. You can't just step around it and shut a thread down when you don't agree with what someone says Feel free to leave the discussion, but there's no reason for the entire thread to be closed.

Amen brother Durkee..I am going to make some cocoa.....

Creed769 wrote:

I can't believe that you can say this (Durkee). You understand that if you lived anywhere else, you (and all your little anarchist friends) would be hanged for treason?

As those who'd persecute us commit treason against humanity, truth, and justice. Hanged under what authority and law? Government power is a cultural allusion that we submit and with growing frequency, subscribe to. I love America, but you don't need to love your government to love your nation. When my government pushes my nation's founding ideals to the side in pursuit of riches, power, and influence, I have a problem with that. I do plan on serving a medical role in my nation's armed forces...so I wish, naturally, to change my government's priorities before I, too, am obligated to submit to them. I wish to serve beside and for my fellow human being for the preservation of life, individual liberties, and the continuing push for peace in all corners of the globe...not some fat man's personal/corporate agenda.

alexkmmll wrote:

Well congrats Wikileaks, look what you've done. NOTHING! Nothing's changed besides the fact that you stirred up a bunch of arguments and discussions that should not have been stirred up in the first place. WikiLeaks has done nothing except put us worse off then before, so congrats to all of you supporters, you've changed nothing.

This conversation is proof that the Sunshine Press has impacted us and will continue to impact us

Impact us how? By becoming a thorn in our nation's, our world's side? I don't think you see the full extent of what your saying durkee.
There's nothing wrong about politics, but this is not the place to discuss this topic, especially with your views on it.

Your a good persuader, and you know how to write. I just don't think this is a topic you should be talking about on here.

alexkmmll wrote:

I just don't think this is a topic you should be talking about on here.

I can respect that. I do think it should remained unlocked so future conversation can take place if and when there is further information released or if someone would like to counter anything said.

Wow...I didn't know Durkee was that liberal...

AllTheGoodNamesWereTaken wrote:

Wow...I didn't know Durkee was that liberal...

LOL you're liberal or you ain't. I just happen to enjoy social progress

Aye, 'tis so.

Insane Mercc wrote:

So, you believe we should just sweep all of this inhumane and criminal evidence under the rug and move on with being a submissive public.

On an airsoft forum, yes.

DrummerBoyz95 wrote:

Insane Mercc wrote:

So, you believe we should just sweep all of this inhumane and criminal evidence under the rug and move on with being a submissive public.

On an airsoft forum, yes.

It shouldnt matter plus it is the lobby...

Looks like I picked a good time to pop up on the Radar

I´m just wondering what

Quote :

inhumane and criminal evidence

has Wikileaks exposed ???

If you follow the information and news networks, there is not a \"Watch your language\" thing that Jullian Assange and his crew have released that is `` New ´´ `` Secret ´´ or `` Revealing ´´, all that they have done is put some realy good SPIN on old information, which validates some of the posts made, the population on a whole is nothing more than a mass of sheep, ready and willing to listen to and follow the latest spewed false information, lies, and outright bullshit.

Come on let´s twist some known information to serve our needs, let´s create a conspiracy, let´s omit valid information to better influence the ideas and ideals of others, and woe to he/she that provides us with the information, we will hang them out to dry.

Wikileaks, IAE, 9/11 Conspiracy, AREA 51, ect....................................
Whatever it takes to make a Buck !!!!
P.T. Barnum said it best,
``There´s a sucker born every minute. ´´

I missed you Slob.

Thanks Creed, good to be back, finaly got some down time on my hands

Soooooo Time for a bit of fun, tho this is not meant to be funny, my comments posted in RED are my true thoughts and feelings about each subject, not meant to inflame even if some feelings or opinions may be stepped apon.

15 REASONS TO BE ANGRY
You know how we're always banging on about 'anger being an energy'? Well, this is enough to charge our batteries for years. It's a shameful disgrace.

1. Since 1960 the countries where the richest 20% of the world's people live have increased their share of gross world product from 73% to 83%. These rich countries are now sixty times better off than those where the poorest 20% live.

an increase of only 10% in gross world product over a time span of 50 years ?? Actualy quite sad, further goes to validate that people are becomming more lazy and dumber

2. 800 million people in the world are severely malnourished or starving.
So ?? Nothing more than a form of Population Control

3. 40,000 children under the age of five die each day from malnutrition and vaccine preventable disease. 33,000 children die every day in developing countries - mainly from easily preventable diseases. This is the equivalent of dropping a bomb similar to the one dropped on Hiroshima on the poor children of the world every three days.
Again same as #2, How much money do these developing countries receive from Help Organizations, UN, UNESCO, Private Donations ?? No food on the Table or Medicine available, I´ll bet you Dad has more than one gun in the house/hut.

4. 358 people own as much wealth as half the world's population.
If it´s earned correctly and within the boundries of the law, More Power to them !

5. About 11 million people are homeless in the world. One person in three in poor countries is homeless or in severely sub-standard housing. A third of the population in most third world countries are squatters. 100 million children live or work on the streets. There are more than 10 million refugees and five million internally displaced people.
Investment oppertunity here, Invest in Cardboard, it is the low income housing of the future !! Again, is this the result of making people reliable on outside help ?? Not providing them with Education, Give a Man a Fish, he will eat for a day, Teach a Man to Fish and he will eat forever

6. 37 million people have been driven from their homes by violence or armed conflict, 80% of them women and children. More than one billion people - the majority of them children - either have no home or live in inadequate housing.
And in most cases the population of these lands are Guilty of not taking preemptive action, Apathy is the true crime, later feelings are played apon when we see all these refugees, Then comes the `` HELP these Poor People ´´ cry, B.S. they had thier chance.

7. 400 million people live under military dictatorships propped up by multinationals that earn huge profits from the cheap labour these regimes provide

Again, it´s thier own fault, you don´t like it ?? Move !!

8. 8.4 million children are trapped in slavery, trafficking, prostitution, debt bondage, pornography and other illicit activities. 250 million children are child labourers. 22,000 children die each year in work-related accidents. Source: International Labour Organisation (Guardian 10/June/03) This is the only comment so far that brings any inkling of sympathy to the surface, but then I think about their parents that sell/force/support them and this way of life, sorry go after the sick animals that prey on the weak, problem solved.

9. If present rates of destruction continue, tropical forests have at most a decade of life. 80% of our world's ancient forest has been destroyed. Every two seconds, a football pitch-sized chunk of ancient forest is cut down.

10. World military spending is over $800 billion per year, with the US spending $396 billion - more than six times larger than that of Russia, the second largest spender.
396 Billion ?? That´s All !!??? Should be tripled !!!

11. The richest 200 people in the world have a combined wealth of more than $1 trillion - equal to the annual income of the poorest 47% of the earths population, some 2.5 billion people. 'The 200 richest people in the world, for instance, more than doubled their net worth between 1994 and 1998, to more than $1 trillion. Meanwhile, disparities continue to grow: In 1960, the income gap between the richest fifth of the world's population and the poorest fifth was 30 to 1; in 1997 it was 74 to 1.'

12. Westerners spend $37 billion a year on pet food and perfumes - enough to provide education, food, health care, water and sanitation for all those now deprived of the basics - with $9 billion to spare. In 1997 the world spent $435 billion on advertising, mostly in Europe, North America and Japan. That is nearly 8 times the amount that was channeled to the developing world in the form of official development assistance.

13. A child born in New York, Paris and London will consume, pollute and waste more in their lifetime than 50 children born in a developing country.
Those that have will use it, those that don´t, don´t know what they are missing

14. There are 15 individuals in the world who are worth more than the whole of sub-Sahara Africa - some 600 million people while over 100 million children throughout the world are forced to work under hazardous and often fatal conditions; many are employed under slave- like conditions for no pay. So !! Have to earn a living somehow

15. Bill Gates could foot the cost for paying for basic education, health care and safe water supplies for the 4.4 billion people who lack basic sanitation and still be a billionaire ten times over afterward.

Bill earned what he has, why should he pay for freeloaders

Good points. Why does everyone want other people to take care of the poor? I do it out of my heart, but if you force me to, it means nothing.

ah, it's good to have you back slob.

slob212 wrote:

1. Since 1960 the countries where the richest 20% of the world's people live have increased their share of gross world product from 73% to 83%. These rich countries are now sixty times better off than those where the poorest 20% live.

an increase of only 10% in gross world product over a time span of 50 years ?? Actualy quite sad, further goes to validate that people are becomming more lazy and dumber

2. 800 million people in the world are severely malnourished or starving.
So ?? Nothing more than a form of Population Control

3. 40,000 children under the age of five die each day from malnutrition and vaccine preventable disease. 33,000 children die every day in developing countries - mainly from easily preventable diseases. This is the equivalent of dropping a bomb similar to the one dropped on Hiroshima on the poor children of the world every three days.
Again same as #2, How much money do these developing countries receive from Help Organizations, UN, UNESCO, Private Donations ?? No food on the Table or Medicine available, I´ll bet you Dad has more than one gun in the house/hut.

15. Bill Gates could foot the cost for paying for basic education, health care and safe water supplies for the 4.4 billion people who lack basic sanitation and still be a billionaire ten times over afterward.

Bill earned what he has, why should he pay for freeloaders

The statistics are meant to show the result of economic stratification and monopolizing of the globe's wealth...where the world's lower class is so deeply "behind" monetarily that any possibility of economic percolation has been lost because the world's industrial complex has shifted in favor of the rich. Except that many of the world's starving and malnourished are in the predicament due to upper class initiatives. Why are African nations so poor, despite being geographically tied to one of the most resource-rich regions in the world? The answer is colonialism, imperialism, and capitalist advances...mostly for oil (You Don't Need It!), precious metals, and cash-crop agriculture.

70% of Nigerians still live on less than $1 a day, yet Shell continues to make record profits in the region. Equatorial Guinea, which has a major oil deal with ExxonMobil, keeps a mere 12% of the oil revenues. This is what keeps Africa poor. It's not a lack of political power but the profitability of the private (unwarranted) industrial from outside corporations. Sub-Saharan Africa, the poorest place on earth, is the most profitable investment destination according to the World Bank's Global Development Finance report...it offers the "highest returns on foreign direct investment of any region in the world". Africa is poor because its investors and its creditors are so fanatically rich. The root being harbored government favoritism.

slob212 wrote:

5. About 11 million people are homeless in the world. One person in three in poor countries is homeless or in severely sub-standard housing. A third of the population in most third world countries are squatters. 100 million children live or work on the streets. There are more than 10 million refugees and five million internally displaced people.
Investment oppertunity here, Invest in Cardboard, it is the low income housing of the future !! Again, is this the result of making people reliable on outside help ?? Not providing them with Education, Give a Man a Fish, he will eat for a day, Teach a Man to Fish and he will eat forever

6. 37 million people have been driven from their homes by violence or armed conflict, 80% of them women and children. More than one billion people - the majority of them children - either have no home or live in inadequate housing.
And in most cases the population of these lands are Guilty of not taking preemptive action, Apathy is the true crime, later feelings are played apon when we see all these refugees, Then comes the `` HELP these Poor People ´´ cry, B.S. they had thier chance.

7. 400 million people live under military dictatorships propped up by multinationals that earn huge profits from the cheap labour these regimes provide

Again, it´s thier own fault, you don´t like it ?? Move !!

How is it the common-man's fault that a government entity has used military force to overpower the masses and force them into, essentially, slavery. The internally displaced are driven from their homes because a man in a military uniform decided to host a war in their front yard. Where are these people supposed to "move"? It's US practice to deny asylum pleas from militant nations, as it leaves us open to criticism...especially when WE are among the multinational investors that support the regimes.

slob212 wrote:

8. 8.4 million children are trapped in slavery, trafficking, prostitution, debt bondage, pornography and other illicit activities. 250 million children are child labourers. 22,000 children die each year in work-related accidents. Source: International Labour Organisation (Guardian 10/June/03) This is the only comment so far that brings any inkling of sympathy to the surface, but then I think about their parents that sell/force/support them and this way of life, sorry go after the sick animals that prey on the weak, problem solved.

13. A child born in New York, Paris and London will consume, pollute and waste more in their lifetime than 50 children born in a developing country.
Those that have will use it, those that don´t, don´t know what they are missing

14. There are 15 individuals in the world who are worth more than the whole of sub-Sahara Africa - some 600 million people while over 100 million children throughout the world are forced to work under hazardous and often fatal conditions; many are employed under slave- like conditions for no pay. So !! Have to earn a living somehow

Well from here it just becomes dehumanization (which, understandably, is the easiest way to base an argument [see: Hitler, Homophobes, Racial stratification, etc.).
I understand you may be playing the devil's advocate, but it's hard to respond when someone has made the moral decision not to care.

Im an idiot and shouldnt have posted anything..Im just gonna spectate now..NEUTRALITY!!

On your first point, why don't the "natives" defend their lands?
1.) If they wanted to, they would defend it. After failing to the US would probably step in some how to help them. They would not be slaughtered by the US just for their oil.

Creed769 wrote:

On your first point, why don't the "natives" defend their lands?
1.) If they wanted to, they would defend it. After failing to the US would probably step in some how to help them. They would not be slaughtered by the US just for their oil.

They do!

Indigenous resistance to physical government-sponsored corporate advances happening at this very second:
-Dongria Kondh tribe vs Vedanta mining in Orissa, India.
-Penan tribe vs. Sarawak-sanctioned deforestation in the Amazon.
-Ayoreo-Totobiegosode vs. UNESCO (cattle company) in South Africa.
-Shintuya and the Puerto Luz vs. Hunt Oil in Peru.
-Shall I go on? I don't want to go there...but Iraq?

The US would step in and help them? You mean give them guns, right?
We armed the Talaban so they could resist...that certainly worked out well.

Spl. Durkee wrote:

Creed769 wrote:

On your first point, why don't the "natives" defend their lands?
1.) If they wanted to, they would defend it. After failing to the US would probably step in some how to help them. They would not be slaughtered by the US just for their oil.

They do!

Indigenous resistance to physical government-sponsored corporate advances happening at this very second:
-Dongria Kondh tribe vs Vedanta mining in Orissa, India.
-Penan tribe vs. Sarawak-sanctioned deforestation in the Amazon.
-Ayoreo-Totobiegosode vs. UNESCO (cattle company) in South Africa.
-Shintuya and the Puerto Luz vs. Hunt Oil in Peru.
-Shall I go on? I don't want to go there...but Iraq?

The US would step in and help them? You mean give them guns, right?
We armed the Talaban so they could resist...that certainly worked out well.

May I please see where the US Gov is actually slaughtering them?
ALSO
Arming them would not be the bad thing to do. It would be what they do with the weapons. It would be on them.

Whoa, where did you hear of us arming Taliban? Can I have a solid citation?
Also, you must remember that Saddam had USED chem weapons on the Kurds! (http://www.cfr.org/publication/9551/mustard_gas.html)
He also pursued a Bio Weapons Program. He also pursued Nuclear Plants. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction)
I believe that he COULD HAVE (and I believe he did) had nuclear weapons. Last time I checked, Bush never ever said: "WE KNOW HE HAS WMD's. WE SAW THEM." So don't bring that up.

Quote :

The statistics are meant to show the result of economic stratification and monopolizing of the globe's wealth...where the world's lower class is so deeply "behind" monetarily that any possibility of economic percolation has been lost because the world's industrial complex has shifted in favor of the rich. Except that many of the world's starving and malnourished are in the predicament due to upper class initiatives. Why are African nations so poor, despite being geographically tied to one of the most resource-rich regions in the world? The answer is colonialism, imperialism, and capitalist advances...mostly for oil (You Don't Need It!), precious metals, and cash-crop agriculture.

70% of Nigerians still live on less than $1 a day, yet Shell continues to make record profits in the region. Equatorial Guinea, which has a major oil deal with ExxonMobil, keeps a mere 12% of the oil revenues. This is what keeps Africa poor. It's not a lack of political power but the profitability of the private (unwarranted) industrial from outside corporations. Sub-Saharan Africa, the poorest place on earth, is the most profitable investment destination according to the World Bank's Global Development Finance report...it offers the "highest returns on foreign direct investment of any region in the world". Africa is poor because its investors and its creditors are so fanatically rich. The root being harbored government favoritism.

Your last sentence sums up the problem, and I´m going to leave out any further comments for now, other explanations of my points of view relate directly back to this.

Quote :

How is it the common-man's fault that a government entity has used military force to overpower the masses and force them into, essentially, slavery. The internally displaced are driven from their homes because a man in a military uniform decided to host a war in their front yard. Where are these people supposed to "move"? It's US practice to deny asylum pleas from militant nations, as it leaves us open to criticism...especially when WE are among the multinational investors that support the regimes.

This is not an action or activity that happens overnight but the `` Comman ´´ man or woman does not want to see where things are going, they do not want to check the backround, political agenda, government plans, no! the masses are willing to be spoon fed promises of milk and honey, but un willing to ask where is it all going to come from. Through out History regardless of success or failure, the Common Man has been the single reason why a country is either great or turmoil ridden.

Quote :

Well from here it just becomes dehumanization (which, understandably, is the easiest way to base an argument [see: Hitler, Homophobes, Racial stratification, etc.).
I understand you may be playing the devil's advocate, but it's hard to respond when someone has made the moral decision not to care.

Dehumanization !!??? Sorry Spl. Durkee, but you realy pulled the round on this one, totaly off target, I sympathize fully with the plight of children, but I do draw the line when a Culture, Race, Society or Country are crying the bleeding heart for some forsaken third world, and then turn around and go buy the products that these countries produce using child labor. You posted that Mr. Gates could help so many millions and still have cash falling out his a$$, true as this may be, Why send it to some hole in the ground ?, Why should he be the only one ?, Why does it have to be some huge influx of $$ from the upper crust of any country ? How about this..... Lets start right inside our own boarders first ! Do you truely believe that Child Labor is only a problem in developing countries ? That Child Porn is an issue in deprived nations ?? That Child Abuse only occurs in non-industrialized nations ?? I invite you to take the Horse Blinders off, visit any large urban area, and look, really look, then get in contact with any of the Child/Family help organizations, ask for the information, Poll your local communitys news sources, everything that you have stated is going on right outside your door ! Why go overseas, let´s fix the problems in our own backyard first !! Instead of buying that Sweet new M-4, take the money you saved up and donate it to any of the multitude of Abused Children help services in and around Riverside.

A Mighty River starts with but one drop of Water Again, the Common Man !!

Spl. Durkee wrote:

Creed769 wrote:

On your first point, why don't the "natives" defend their lands?
1.) If they wanted to, they would defend it. After failing to the US would probably step in some how to help them. They would not be slaughtered by the US just for their oil.

They do!

Indigenous resistance to physical government-sponsored corporate advances happening at this very second:
-Dongria Kondh tribe vs Vedanta mining in Orissa, India.
-Penan tribe vs. Sarawak-sanctioned deforestation in the Amazon.
-Ayoreo-Totobiegosode vs. UNESCO (cattle company) in South Africa.
-Shintuya and the Puerto Luz vs. Hunt Oil in Peru.
-Shall I go on? I don't want to go there...but Iraq?

The US would step in and help them? You mean give them guns, right?
We armed the Talaban so they could resist...that certainly worked out well.

Thats right. The Talaban did resist. They threw out the Soviet Union! As far as Im concerned, they did what we told them to do (With an unforseen twist at the end ).
As for WikiLeaks, how do we know that what has been said is completely true!?!
We know that they 'cut down' all the cables, so what's stopping them from changing them a bit?

Creed769 wrote:

Whoa, where did you hear of us arming Taliban? Can I have a solid citation?
I believe that he COULD HAVE (and I believe he did) had nuclear weapons. Last time I checked, Bush never ever said: "WE KNOW HE HAS WMD's. WE SAW THEM." So don't bring that up.

While I do side on you wuth Iraq Creed, (Yea I think there may have been WMD's there, atleast we had good reason to believe so, which is pretty \"Watch your language\" good reason to put boots on the soil IMHO) I have to point out that we DID indeed arm the Taliban. We armed them to overthrow the Soviets, which they did, but now.....yeahhhh

Just because somebody has WMD´s, that is a reason to invade them ???

It is proven that Iraq has/had a WMD program and stockpile, but in the time between father and son, there was more than an oppertunity to remove, relocate, hide said stockpile, but just because they had them, does it justify invadeing sovergn territory ??

Check out the Security Council Mandate of the U.N., some really interesting reading, and even more interesting when you compare it to the facts.

D-T, check out history, we have a fantastic batting average when it comes to backing the wrong horse.